Hoping someone can give some advice on growing grass under this tree without removing the whole tree. My Father-in-law was told by a local guy the only way he'll get grass to grow is removing the whole tree. Personally I think the tree adds more to the property than a little more grass. My suggestion was to remove the lower branches to get more light to the ground, spread some good topsoil over the clay and plant some sod. But that's just a gut feeling and I don't have any real knowledge to back it up. He said if I can get someone to back it up he'll try that first.
Trying to save this tree
- Thread starter TJinSC
- Start date
NickfromWI
Participating member
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
I think we've all attacked this fight at one point or another.
I start with the precept that lawn and trees typically don't go well with one another and work from there.
They have to select their priority. Obviously, I want the tree to be the priority.
If they want lawn, then we raise the canopy, thin it, top it. Basically we butcher the tree continually for ever to do whatever it takes to get sun to the ground.
Then we make sure to select an appropriate seed and amount of water to work with the lawn they want.
If they are just looking for clean, crisp landscaping, then how about a nice, edged mulch ring around the tree. This picture shows a tree that could use and look great with it.
If they want the tree (which is the more monetarily valuable between tree/lawn) then we abandon the idea that we need grass in the first place.
Sometimes people want lawn because they want lawn and you can't change that or barely work with it. In this case, you can either remove the tree, or just thin the hell out of it and cost them $1,000/yr.
Sometimes people think they want lawn, but they are really striving for something else. They want it to look fancy. Or they think the patchy soil looks worn down and they want it to look "healthy."
Basically I try to figure out what they want, then convince them that mulch will give them what they want.
So what is your father in law looking for? Why does he care? Most people wouldn't even bring it up...so he obviously is thinking about it for some reason. Get to the root of that.
love
nick
I start with the precept that lawn and trees typically don't go well with one another and work from there.
They have to select their priority. Obviously, I want the tree to be the priority.
If they want lawn, then we raise the canopy, thin it, top it. Basically we butcher the tree continually for ever to do whatever it takes to get sun to the ground.
Then we make sure to select an appropriate seed and amount of water to work with the lawn they want.
If they are just looking for clean, crisp landscaping, then how about a nice, edged mulch ring around the tree. This picture shows a tree that could use and look great with it.
If they want the tree (which is the more monetarily valuable between tree/lawn) then we abandon the idea that we need grass in the first place.
Sometimes people want lawn because they want lawn and you can't change that or barely work with it. In this case, you can either remove the tree, or just thin the hell out of it and cost them $1,000/yr.
Sometimes people think they want lawn, but they are really striving for something else. They want it to look fancy. Or they think the patchy soil looks worn down and they want it to look "healthy."
Basically I try to figure out what they want, then convince them that mulch will give them what they want.
So what is your father in law looking for? Why does he care? Most people wouldn't even bring it up...so he obviously is thinking about it for some reason. Get to the root of that.
love
nick
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
Hey TJ, hadn't see you around in a bit.
Maybe grass all the way under the tree, up to the trunk isn't the best idea. Well, actually its not. However, I suspect that it seems unsightly. The tree and grass are in direct competition with one another for soil resources (water, nutrients. don't know if grass utilizes beneficial fungi that fix nitrogen).
Perhaps a better combination is a good circle of organic mulch, a lower maintenance edging,then grass outside that. Possible some small understory plants to add aesthetic value.
The mulch will help in many ways. Slowly enriching the soil as it breaks down, buffering the temperature by insulating, retaining soil moisture, reducing soil compaction that comes with mowing, reducing the likelihood of lawn care equipment damage to the trunk of the tree (mower bumping/ string trimmer whipping), avoiding/ reducing the competition so the tree can be healthier, and the lawn can be healthier.
If you could convince them of this, then use the dripline, or as large of an area as possible, as the mulch ring guide. And easy to maintain edging of some sorts helps to keep the mulch in place and tidy looking.
Scalp the grass that will be under the mulch with a mower and then string trimmer. Layer overlapping newspaper several pages thick, or overlapping cardboard to help to smoother the grass and weeds. Lay organic (wood chips, ground bark (trying to avoid cypress mulch, some of which is harvested from some gulf coast wetlands, destroying them in the process)) for a final layer 3-4" thick, while staying a few inches away from the tree's trunk.
Consider if plug aeration is needed. Overseed the lawn. Keep it watered during establishment.
If needed, thin the canopy for light. You can probably find a shade tolerant grass seed, if light really is a factor.
Maybe grass all the way under the tree, up to the trunk isn't the best idea. Well, actually its not. However, I suspect that it seems unsightly. The tree and grass are in direct competition with one another for soil resources (water, nutrients. don't know if grass utilizes beneficial fungi that fix nitrogen).
Perhaps a better combination is a good circle of organic mulch, a lower maintenance edging,then grass outside that. Possible some small understory plants to add aesthetic value.
The mulch will help in many ways. Slowly enriching the soil as it breaks down, buffering the temperature by insulating, retaining soil moisture, reducing soil compaction that comes with mowing, reducing the likelihood of lawn care equipment damage to the trunk of the tree (mower bumping/ string trimmer whipping), avoiding/ reducing the competition so the tree can be healthier, and the lawn can be healthier.
If you could convince them of this, then use the dripline, or as large of an area as possible, as the mulch ring guide. And easy to maintain edging of some sorts helps to keep the mulch in place and tidy looking.
Scalp the grass that will be under the mulch with a mower and then string trimmer. Layer overlapping newspaper several pages thick, or overlapping cardboard to help to smoother the grass and weeds. Lay organic (wood chips, ground bark (trying to avoid cypress mulch, some of which is harvested from some gulf coast wetlands, destroying them in the process)) for a final layer 3-4" thick, while staying a few inches away from the tree's trunk.
Consider if plug aeration is needed. Overseed the lawn. Keep it watered during establishment.
If needed, thin the canopy for light. You can probably find a shade tolerant grass seed, if light really is a factor.
robinia
Participating member
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
I'm no turf guy but your idea seems okay to me. Funny how there is a fair amount of sun on the ground in the photo.
Maybe if shade is a problem do the topdressing with soil and overseed with a shade mixture? Most sod is grown for full sun applications right? A shade grass would just make better sense.
Having said that the tree does look pretty shaggy. A light raising probably woudn't hurt. You know, "Nothing ventured nothing gained."
Is that sand in all the bare areas?
What's the tree?
What do the other lawns look like nearby? This might have nothing to do with the tree and everything to do with the soil.
EDIT:
yeah, what they all said. I didn't realize it takes me so long to type.
Maybe if shade is a problem do the topdressing with soil and overseed with a shade mixture? Most sod is grown for full sun applications right? A shade grass would just make better sense.
Having said that the tree does look pretty shaggy. A light raising probably woudn't hurt. You know, "Nothing ventured nothing gained."
Is that sand in all the bare areas?
What's the tree?
What do the other lawns look like nearby? This might have nothing to do with the tree and everything to do with the soil.
EDIT:
yeah, what they all said. I didn't realize it takes me so long to type.
Nick, he thinks the bare spots take away from the house and he wants to fix the house up to sell. So he has no long term concern for the tree or grass (he really wants a condo so he doesnt have to be bothered with finding a lawn service).
Sean, Ive just been hiding in the shadows, listening to what everyone else has to say. I think I'll try selling him on the mulch/grass combo. I know he doesnt want to spend anymore than he has to. Personally I think his yard is average for the neighborhood so most of the money spent on the yard will be lost in resale, but he wants everything perfect.
Thanks for the detailed plan. I think that will go a long way in at least getting him to try saving the tree.
Sean, Ive just been hiding in the shadows, listening to what everyone else has to say. I think I'll try selling him on the mulch/grass combo. I know he doesnt want to spend anymore than he has to. Personally I think his yard is average for the neighborhood so most of the money spent on the yard will be lost in resale, but he wants everything perfect.
Thanks for the detailed plan. I think that will go a long way in at least getting him to try saving the tree.
- Location
- Milwaukee, WI
If it were me I would put a mulch bed around it and plant a shade tolerant turf.. Looks like the soil is really compacted too.
the soil looks compacted to me try aeration then deep root and shallow (3" to 4") water injections to bust up the soil. tip thin for light filtration take all dead wood to 1/2" take the main truck suckers. very lightly reduce the interior branch suckers. place a 6' mulch ring around the root crown. plant some small secondary canopy plants and lay palisade ( i think) zoyza ( or however you spell it), it requires 3 to 4 hours of filtered sunlight. the tip thinning, a very light sucker reduction with some thinning, and heavy dead wooding will provide more light and tree health than a raise and thin. the end result off raising and thinning will be shock: an over abundance of advantageous water sprout resulting in less sunlight than he had before. remember the more primary meristematic growth we take the less hormones the tree produces to subdue the advantageous epicormic growth.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Turf needs three things:
Sun
Water
Nutrients
If all three aren't there turf goes away.
Can you cut enough off the tree and not damage the tree to get enough light? Most times, in my experience, not. So....why try?
Mulch beds, perennials...
There isn't a turf problem that can't be cured by Roundup!
--Peter Dzuik
Sun
Water
Nutrients
If all three aren't there turf goes away.
Can you cut enough off the tree and not damage the tree to get enough light? Most times, in my experience, not. So....why try?
Mulch beds, perennials...
There isn't a turf problem that can't be cured by Roundup!
--Peter Dzuik
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
Resale value-- much cheaper to mulch. Can be done without expensive equipment. Fast and easy. Pop in some plants. Seed will fill the remaining patches pretty quickly to a great enough degree for curb appeal, and it will match better. The tree add a lot to the value of the house if its health.
A canopy raise is cheap if its some small fluffy stuff, just stay away from removing large limbs.
Is the local guy advising the tree removal the local lawn guy, the local expert lawn guy, a tree guy? What's this guy's stake in the removal and seeding.
A canopy raise is cheap if its some small fluffy stuff, just stay away from removing large limbs.
Is the local guy advising the tree removal the local lawn guy, the local expert lawn guy, a tree guy? What's this guy's stake in the removal and seeding.
The_Archdruid
Participating member
[ QUOTE ]
My Father-in-law was told by a local guy the only way he'll get grass to grow is removing the whole tree.
[/ QUOTE ]
What kind of tree is that? Claret ash or willow oak? The thing is beautiful and worth defending. You should cut out the vines on the trunk and use them to threaten your father-in-law; strangle the bast*rd if he cuts on a single branch, that kind of thing . . .
There's that great scene in the Wizard of Oz where the tree goes berserk and tries to kill Dorothy and all her friends. Even as a kid I knew the tree was right for trying and I was disappointed when it had to explain itself.
My Father-in-law was told by a local guy the only way he'll get grass to grow is removing the whole tree.
[/ QUOTE ]
What kind of tree is that? Claret ash or willow oak? The thing is beautiful and worth defending. You should cut out the vines on the trunk and use them to threaten your father-in-law; strangle the bast*rd if he cuts on a single branch, that kind of thing . . .
There's that great scene in the Wizard of Oz where the tree goes berserk and tries to kill Dorothy and all her friends. Even as a kid I knew the tree was right for trying and I was disappointed when it had to explain itself.
NickfromWI
Participating member
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
If he's selling, then I say go 100% with the mulching. You can have that thing looking super sharp REAL fast.
The tree could use some gentle cleaning- but I wouldn't do too much. The average home buy won't notice the difference in the canopy.
Since he's selling, I'd even go for some of the coco mulch or colored mulch or whatever looks best with the best of the yard rather than the plain ol' wood chips (that I usually prefer)
love
nick
The tree could use some gentle cleaning- but I wouldn't do too much. The average home buy won't notice the difference in the canopy.
Since he's selling, I'd even go for some of the coco mulch or colored mulch or whatever looks best with the best of the yard rather than the plain ol' wood chips (that I usually prefer)
love
nick
Thanks for the input everyone! If this isn't enough ammo to save the tree I don't know what will. Besides strangling him with the vines
Im not sure what the local guys stake in the whole thing is. Not sure if hes with the lawn service or just soemone my father-in-law knows. I was only told this guy "studied this stuff in school"
Im not sure what the local guys stake in the whole thing is. Not sure if hes with the lawn service or just soemone my father-in-law knows. I was only told this guy "studied this stuff in school"
- Location
- MKE, WI
Some good advise above.
What I would do is break up some of the clay with an air-spade, amend with compost, plant some shade/sun perennials, do the decorative mulch ring out 3-4 ft and then seed in around the rest. You can take a garden weasel through the soil to break it up before doing an overseed.
do a light thinning of the lower canopy (as said above, no large cuts)
For the compost i might look for some pine needles that have been mulched for a year or so for a bit more acidity
What I would do is break up some of the clay with an air-spade, amend with compost, plant some shade/sun perennials, do the decorative mulch ring out 3-4 ft and then seed in around the rest. You can take a garden weasel through the soil to break it up before doing an overseed.
do a light thinning of the lower canopy (as said above, no large cuts)
For the compost i might look for some pine needles that have been mulched for a year or so for a bit more acidity
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
[ QUOTE ]
Turf needs three things:
Sun
Water
Nutrients
If all three aren't there turf goes away.
Can you cut enough off the tree and not damage the tree to get enough light? Most times, in my experience, not. So....why try?
Mulch beds, perennials...
There isn't a turf problem that can't be cured by Roundup!
--Peter Dzuik
[/ QUOTE ]
Well said.
More people need educating as to the beauty of trees growing under optimal conditions. Lawn worshipers are following a false idol.
Turf needs three things:
Sun
Water
Nutrients
If all three aren't there turf goes away.
Can you cut enough off the tree and not damage the tree to get enough light? Most times, in my experience, not. So....why try?
Mulch beds, perennials...
There isn't a turf problem that can't be cured by Roundup!
--Peter Dzuik
[/ QUOTE ]
Well said.
More people need educating as to the beauty of trees growing under optimal conditions. Lawn worshipers are following a false idol.
Raven
Branched out member
- Location
- Northwoods
Mulch ring, 15-20 feet out from the trunk. Install a little landscape edging around it without cutting tree roots, maybe throw in some Hostas and voila! - no worries. It will look great for resale and be very low maintenance.
- Location
- Lansing, NY
Yes the mulch is a great idea, hosta,bugbane,ferns,and the list goes on. The mulch will also add nutrients to the soil and help break up the clay over time with the break down of the bark. With the sod you have to till up, fert,seed,sod, and water everyday.
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