Treesit Lawsuit Gets Bigger

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I'm all for renewable resources. But old-growth is not a renewable resource in anyone's imagination.

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That's probably a bit strong Tom! The reality is that old-growth can be renewable. The major problem is that it can take a very long time to happen without some help! One thing to keep in mind is that the old-growth forests of the future will likely be different than the ones we have today. Actually the old-growth forests of today will be different in the future as well. Forest are not static environments.

What bothers me most about this general issue is that both sides are fighting with each other instead of working on equitable compromises. This polarization has resulted in a management style on much of our public lands that is actually hindering the creation of the next old-growth forest on these lands. I have said this before but here it is again. If you want to preserve the existing old-growth that is located on private land either buy it or trade other public land for it. No one would support having a portion of their house reserved by the government, so why should we expect that in this case?

Tight grained wood is quite different from it's modern high growth rate counterpart, but this isn't always an old-growth issue. I have some nice second growth that has tight grain. Not quite what Glen was talking about, but certainly better than the ROI driven industrial standard.

Regards,

Cary
 
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The reality is that old-growth can be renewable.
Cary

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What an absurd statememt.
If it's not worth saving when we have it why is it worth renewing?
 
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Jenny thanks for your efforts to save the old growth. It seems to me every action except for the sitters has been based on greed Vs. conservation of old growth.

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Thank you, and you're welcome. Maxxam/Pacific Lumber has spent tremendous amounts of energy to cut down irreplaceable ancient redwoods. They are at the tail end of their old-growth redwood "inventory."

There is an important grove of giants on the chopping block right now, and the only thing holding up the cut is the courts. If environmental laws were upheld, logging there wouldn't even be an option. We need a long-term solution to save the old-growth (Sierra Pacific Industries still has a lot). Hopefully the court will not let this place (cynically called "Bonanza" by Maxxam) be cut.
 
But old-growth is not a renewable resource in anyone's imagination.

I guess that I shouldn't have been so spare with my words. When I talk about OG I'm talking about a forest that has evolved and grown into what it looks like before the chainsaws fire up. If those trees have the potential to become X years old, then the whold environment needs to be around for that long. In a complete organism.

I know that there's a textbook definition of what OG is. That is a modern sense of the term.

How can we even imagine a biome that has evolved to grow trees that can live to be as old as the redwoods?
 
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The reality is that old-growth can be renewable.
Cary

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What an absurd statememt.

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Interesting! Can I assume you have some actual facts/knowledge to the contrary? Provide me with the appropriate information and I will gladly recant my statement. In the spirit of providing references to backup ones assertions I find the following document from 2003 enlightening: New findings about old-growth forests.

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If it's not worth saving when we have it why is it worth renewing?

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Where have I ever said old-growth wasn't worth saving? My only argument is that if society finds it valuable then they should be responsible for supporting it's survival not private parties. I suppose I have also challenged certain claims that have been made without the appropriate science to back them up, but I let that ax swing either way.

Cary
 
Tom,

I need to head off to bed so I don't have time for a complete answer, but the “organism” as you call it changes as the forest does. The other day I was looking at an old growth DF cookie they have at the local Forestry museum and it grew fairly fast for it's first few decades indicating it started growing in a fairly open area.

How can we imagine a biome that would allow us to have this debate?

Cary
 
"How can we imagine a biome that would allow us to have this debate?"

Yes, let's meet at a grove of old growth that is, and will be, preserved. Fortunately there are some of those in public hands. Yosemite, King's Canyon and Sequoia come to mind. They are about as close as we're ever going to see. The management for the last hundred years or so has suppressed fire so there is a bit of human change.

"the “organism” as you call it changes as the forest does."

Like Wulike says, if we think in tree time instead of chainsaw time, there is a different pace. Since there is so little OG left I'm concerned when more goes through the mill. It seems irresponsible as a society to have this happen. It would be nice to see a passenger pigeon wouldn't it?
 
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Jenny thanks for your efforts to save the old growth. It seems to me every action except for the sitters has been based on greed Vs. conservation of old growth.

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Jeeez, TreeCo. I cant imagine how you could kiss her butt any better. Show some backbone man!

Jenny said:
"I haven't invaded anyone's home or harrassed anyone, and I'm not part of a group that does such things. Those are some pretty wild accusations".

Another twist of the truth. The fact is your group operates on the exact same principals as a 'cell' organized terriorist group. You are a part of it. The 'not my department' speil is untrue. The actions you take reflect on them, and the actions they take reflect on you.

To distance yourself from your other 'cells' is obfuscation to say the least.

Lying by omission, slandering all and any that oppose your viewpoint, using any tool at hand to make your statement, is a way of fighting your battle that is counterproductive and irresponsible.

For example you just said:

"Also, the treesitter that attacked Ox's forearm with his throat still faces trial over the incident".

This is a ongoing investigation that is in the courts. Judgement will be made by his peers. And until then he, (and anyone accused, at least here in America), is innocent until proven guilty.

My opinion, and I have alot of them, is the guy needs alot more than the minor whipping he got, to get his head on straight. Tottally moronic to free climb up to that height, jump across from one tree to the other, and start wrestling with the extractors. AND then cry about 'rough treatment'. The guy has had rougher treatment from falling off his bicycle, for crying out loud. He is a total athlete in his private life and immensly strong physically.

Talk about inflating reality. Reminds me of the lady who got millions (or her lawyers did) from McDonalds for spilling coffee on her lap.

The sad part about this for me anyway, is that I believe you and your organization COULD be an effective tool for positive change. But after reading through the literature produced by your organization, viewing your 'official' DVD ('Struggle in the woods, views of extraction), and having experianced first hand your organizations attempt to silence a Key Note speaker at our Ca. Arborists Association annual dinner, I am left with the impression that your organization is on a parr with any cult, fanatical religious group, or terrorist organization.
Mainstream society will not, and does not, support such things. They exist, but you will not garner the overwhelming societal support such worthy causes require in order to succeed. As I said before, this is a sad situation all around.

Frans
 
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Jeeez, TreeCo. I cant imagine how you could kiss her butt any better. Show some backbone man!

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What's this? Attacking someone who doesn't share your viewpoint? This is exactly what you accuse me of doing.

You keep going on about my "organization" but don't state what organization you think I am a part of. Maybe you are lumping me in with people who oppose your point of view who you then accuse of being a "cell." Good grief.

You've made several statements on the buzz about being frustrated with people who speak about the Freshwater treesits and extractions without having "first hand knowledge" of these issues. However, you make a lot of ignorant statements about me and others with whom you have no first-hand knowledge.

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Tottally moronic to free climb up to that height, jump across from one tree to the other, and start wrestling with the extractors.

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Case in point. This is not what happened. Eric Schatz tried to assert this on the stand in court, but admitted he did not see the mythical jump "from one tree to the other." Video shot from the ground shows that the treesitter did not make such a jump. Schatz also testified that the extractors grabbed the treesitter first. So both sides agree that it was the extractors who started wrestling with the treesitter.
 
Remedy and all, I read this thread and I find it interesting that those in the tree care business can have a reasonable conversation with an extremist. The protesting that you are involved in Remedy certainly strikes me as extreme. As for the treesitter extraction, I watched the whole video through a link here I believe a few months ago, can you tell me that the treesitter was being co-operative in any way that would allow himself and his extractors to leave the tree in a safe and reasonable manner? I think the extractors were at first fairly reasonable about attempting to remove the individual but after the initial struggle where the sitter was attempting to release or remove the safety line and equipment from the extractors it was a normal reaction for the use of force to escalate. I dont know if Ox and the other fellow were justified in every action they took, thats for the court to decide. I look at a different situation, if it was police officers removing someone from an office "sit in" and an individual became violent towards the officers (say the person went for the officers gun, a situation of potential terminal harm vs removing or releasing someones safety harness), do you think they would attempt to restrain him gently? The level of force is a two way street.

BTW is there a valid link to the video around anywhere? I wouldnt mind watching it again to refresh my memory as this thread continues.
 
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if it was police officers removing someone from an office "sit in" and an individual became violent towards the officers ... do you think they would attempt to restrain him gently?

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This is not what happened. Extractor Eric Schatz testified under oath that the extractors grabbed the treesitter first. The extractors initiated a physical struggle.
 
was the sitter asked to remove himself prior to the extractors entering the tree? If so, did he take the opportunity to leave of his own free will? If not, then I think he would be classified as non co-operative and in need of assisted removal. Like I said, I dont necessarily agree that the level of force was justified but, I wasnt up the tree with them.

If you place yourself in harms way, dont be surprised if you come to harm.

If you dont like being roughed up and removed from your position by a couple of extractors then when they ask you to leave of your own free will, leave. If you are looking for publicity in the world of TV and media, enjoy the roughness, its what turns people on and gets them to view your cause, but don't get mad and claim "who me?" when you do encounter the roughness.

any chance of a link to the vid still being around anywhere? I really want to watch it again..
 
Good job Ox, if I had anything negative to say about how you handled it then it would be to say you should have maced him for your own safety as well as his.
 
Sleeper hold!

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Jerry B. indicates in his new book that old growth is renewable and shows several pictures of big beautiful 100 year old second growth redwoods.
 
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I'm all for renewable resources. But old-growth is not a renewable resource in anyone's imagination.


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That's probably a bit strong Tom! The reality is that old-growth can be renewable. The major problem is that it can take a very long time to happen without some help!

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If old growth can be renewable why are the lumber companies so intent on cutting down the last few remnants of old growth? Why don't they just "...help..." renew the old growth that they have already cut and then cut it again?
We shouldn't be too quick to take away that which we cannot as easily replace.



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My only argument is that if society finds it valuable then they should be responsible for supporting it's survival not private parties.

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A good point. Unfortunatly, society as a whole, and people in general, often don't realize the value of something, and thus don't support its survival, until that thing is gone.
 
I said I would say anything again, buy I have to chyme in .

The fella is Ox is so called choking and brutalizing according to this film, was not a sitter. He was never in the tree untill he climbed up it to create a problem. Claiming he was suicidal and threatenig the extractors.Two actual sitters were in the tree and as usual things were going just fine.

When someone threatens you, threatens himself or gives any inklin that hes going to mess with your ropes, action is going to be taken be taken.No matter what you think about how the cituation should have been handled in any extraction, you wernt there. When your working at 150' plus and concentrating on many intricate things happening around you, the climbers safety comes first.

Arm bars , choke holds, preasure points, all the submission holds are great, but I can guarntee that as soon as you have put one of those holds on a sitter, thats the clip that will be shone on the net and unless you can produce raw footage leading up to the actual hold as to why you had to do it, then you'll be branded.There is much protocall extratores have to follow, so dont think every extraction is like the one that has been cut up and put on the net for benificial reasons.

MOst extraction go very smoothly and are not combative cituation, such as Jenny was.But once in a while a stinker gets thrown in and you have to react.

This is not a game for the extractors. It's not a movie. It's live and very real and life threatening sometimes for both parties because of the cituation sitters put themselves in.Thier not chase up the tree or through the canopy with extractors at thier heals threatening them. They do it on thier owen. If they decide to leave the comfort and safety of thier nest without safety gear( which they typically do )then they have just endangered themselves and created a whole nother invironment for the extractors.


This fella who decided to Rambo his way up the tree, may or may not have deserved what happend. On the other hand , givin the facts above, when tensions are already high, what do you think you would have done in that element? you dont know until you've dealt with that kind of problem.Did anyone mention he would have been convicted of a felony if certain people didnt let off because they didnt want him to have a felony record over his head?

Jenny you say you dont lump yourself in with these radicals, but weren't you there ?...Seems to me your still accomplice to the crime. Some of your cheering section out on the county road, were radicals. Whoem some got arrested. I'm sure you remember that day you and wren Were takin out ...Sore day for ya huh ? Yet all those people yelling and screaming telling the sitters to cut the climbers ropes...bla bla bla...are not part of you and whatever group you belong to ?...Seems kind of strange how all of them just showed up since you dont associate with that kind..

Over and out once again
 
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Jeeez, TreeCo. I cant imagine how you could kiss her butt any better. Show some backbone man!

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What's this? Attacking someone who doesn't share your viewpoint? This is exactly what you accuse me of doing. [ QUOTE ]


That is not an attack, Jeny. Simply urging the man to not be a sycophant.

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You've made several statements on the buzz about being frustrated with people who speak about the Freshwater treesits and extractions without having "first hand knowledge" of these issues. However, you make a lot of ignorant statements about me and others with whom you have no first-hand knowledge. [ QUOTE ]


I DONT like egregious statements made by folks who have no real knowledge of a situation. I can and do appreciate constructive critisism, and impassioned debate. When I make statements about your and the organization you belong to, I am garnering information from the actual participants, the movies they have made, (including your side).


Jeny, when I say this situation is sad, what I mean is this; If you read over very carefully what I have written to you on this board, NOWHERE do I condemm your cause. I am NOT in favor of what the corporations have done and continue to do to our resources on earth.
My point is that you (and your organization) have not been forthwright and completly honest.
What you have here at TreeBuzz is an ideal forum for teaching an entire population of like minded people the issues confronting this logging situation.
The folks here have been welcoming, attentive, and have responded with educated and thoughfull responses.
IT IS NOT NECESSARY to be disengenuous. The 'cause' is worthy on it's own merits.

ps: the english definition of 'Organization' is:

1. the act or process of organizing
2. the state or manner of being organized
3. something that is organized

Not to denigrate you Jeny, but my use of this word is entirely accurate, is it not? Is it not true you have a group of people who have supported you while treesitting? Have you not participated in groups protesting?
 
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