Training video - felling a side leaner

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So knowing these facts makes one more confident in using bonafide felling techniques whilst others just clamber around scratching their heads wondering if all is OK.
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ekka, as usual you do yourself a mis-service, after putting forward a reasonably intellectual thread you let yourself down with one of your usual childish digs, born from pure ignorance.
 
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500,000 house
rope rate 9300kg you aint busting that.
shock load, it rides tension
forces calculate using vectors.
Estimate weight of the tree, transpose figures verticle and horizontal forces. dynamometer
100' steel pole 10,000kg (10t)mounted 4 guy wires on it
10 degree lean force the math I could confortably say ... not 10t.
just clamber around scratching their heads wondering if all is OK.

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Oh dear Ekka, It seems you are suffering from overexposure to maths, physics and engineering.

All your calculations and theories regarding this technique are wonderful, they truly are. But you forget one thing, the most important factor, you have neglected to mention.

What about that area of decay within the tree below the holding rope that causes the tree to fail due to the massive forces the stem is being subjected to.
How you gonna explain that to the homeowners......

"I'm sorry Mr Smith, I done the calculations"

This technique relies heavily on the structural integrity of the tree, and the strength of the wood within it.

Trees are not steel poles!

You can't guarantee me 100% that you know that the tree or no part of it will fail during this operation.

No matter how many calculations you show me.

Thanks Ekka
 
I always opt for the safer method even if it takes a bit longer. Hardly ever use any math.
 
Lumberjack, it was a gravel driveway, fortunately, or I would've had a lot of work to do up in that tree.

I'm pro-engineering. We're all engineers to some degree. The more we can apply it, the less risk and stress on the job.
 
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You can't guarantee me 100% that you know that the tree or no part of it will fail during this operation.

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Same logic goes for climbing, rigging, felling, bucket flying, driving to work, and insurance.
 
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So knowing these facts makes one more confident in using bonafide felling techniques whilst others just clamber around scratching their heads wondering if all is OK.
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ekka, as usual you do yourself a mis-service, after putting forward a reasonably intellectual thread you let yourself down with one of your usual childish digs, born from pure ignorance.

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What is born from ignorance is some-one climbing a straight forward fell. Since when has arguing fact against myth been ignorance?

Grover, I dont know you, your skills or experience. But I do know that you need to do a VTA prior to any tree work. Do you not conduct an assessment prior to the treework whether that be climbing, felling etc? Many have died climbing a tree that should have been felled, bucket trucked or craned.

Did you see any decay, failed hinge, or loss of integrity on the falling journey? NO! Well, was that luck too then?
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Vector forces, whether they be on steel, wood, concrete or plastic remain the same ... trees are not steel poles that's for sure, and no where did I say they were, however I did use an example of a steel pole to explain vector forces but perhaps you're a little confused.

100% guarantees in life; if that's what you're after then you are in the wrong business ... I'm in the business of eliminating maybes and when they have been eliminated to the best of my ability then it's time to rock ... just like you saw on that and many other videos of mine ... risk elimination is what it is about not 100% guarantees. Thanks LJ, you responded well.

MasterBlaster, math is good, talk to Spydie.

Rborist1, why haven't you changed your avatar at TH yet? You know it's inappropriate to do what you do, and why hasn't the owner of the site done the right thing either?

LumberJack, what I see is a Allmark up a tree with a tape measure and crane. Graham McMahon levitating large blocks off some massive euc using a tape measure and log chart, dynamomters and headsets. You using appropriate cranes for TD's and calculating boom spans and pick sizes ...


... what I see is a whole new bunch of calculative arbos ...



... and whole lot of old school ones.
 
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Rborist1, why haven't you changed your avatar at TH yet? You know it's inappropriate to do what you do, and why hasn't the owner of the site done the right thing either?


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Does it really bother you that much? Why do you feel it's so inappropriate? If you are still coming over to the TH, why don't you post these questions/statements over there? Why hang out the laundry at the Buzz? Notice, I have a different avatar pic over here.
 
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Who am I to mess with people's avatars?

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Yo Nimrod!

You own the site.
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Grover, I dont know you, your skills or experience. But I do know that you need to do a VTA prior to any tree work.

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VTA, yes I am aware of this Ekka.

I know that you think this holding technique is a great idea.
Which it is, in certain situations.

Lets say that you have a 120FT Oak heavily branched over the $500 000 house with a significant lean over the house as well.
Picture this image in your mind.

You have room to fell it onto the lawn off to the back and side of the house.

If the holding technique failed during the fell you would destroy the house completely. A Totally and Utterly Obliterated home.
With your face on Local T.V. and in local newspapers!

Are you really gonna use this technique to bring that tree down.......Honestly?

When I see the video of this I will be convinced.
 
Yes I would, fly me over! And buy the gear required, oak is very strong and dense timber, most reliable.
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Oh, and I got a 100% guarantee on my insurance policy, just remember to evac the house prior to the fall coz thats OHS protocol.
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Attached is a little quiz, lets see what peoples answers are.

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grover: Lets say you had that exact tree and situation over a $15k dollar trailer, would that matter? Half mil homes are not that big of a deal, they are fun for telling stories however. Koa Man and a few others work around truly expensive homes, a house worth 500k isn't much these days, comparing to the bigger picture.

I am not arguing for Ekka, I am arguing that your points have been noted and were understood the first time. I will admit to skimming this thread, but I didn't notice Ekka saying it would work for every tree in every situation. If you find an instance of that point it out and I will point out just how stupid that is as well.

Furthermore Ekka said he is a better feller than climber, anyone could tell that. I haven't seen (again I have skimmed) where he said climbing was foolish, but that he would rather fell a tree if given the option, I am the same way.

In closing, "Tree work is having the options to get the job done and the wisdom to know which option is best" Having options that use the same kit you already have in a new manner doesn't require many calories to understand (typically) and the knowledge itself cannot hurt you.

If a "treeman" can only fell trees, he isn't very useful in an urban environment, if a "treeman" cannot climb/rig trees, he is not very useful in an urban environment. If a "treeman" can't drive (here in the US), he is equally screwed.
 
Oh, a little tip and help so you can associate this with trees.

The top of this beam is now 17.63' off centre.

Hey Grover, I just thought of something. What's holding that oak up now?
 
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Oh, and I got a 100% guarantee on my insurance policy, just remember to evac the house prior to the fall coz thats OHS protocol.


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You sound very confident Ekka.

I dont know how to do your quiz.

I would be interested if you could explain though.

When I saw the quiz I could'nt help but be reminded of Pete Donzelli.

With respect, There are times when treeworkers over complicate their job.

I use very high safety factors in my day to day life as a climbing arborist.

But I am only too aware that trees are very unpredictable and that although the appliance of science has its place in certain situations there are a times when a job is just not safe to do, no matter how well the calculations figure out.

Thanks Ekka, but I'll be doing that Oak with a combination of climbing and bucket truck.

Lumberjack, thanks for your thoughts as well.
 
Ok Ekka, I dug out some of my old school books on geometry!
Which were in the attic.

Its a lot more simple than i first thought, i havent use these types of brain cells for a while.

I used tan, ratios, a sheet of paper, pencil, some simple geometry and a hand held scientific calculator, i think i've got the right answers.

A = 1.76T

B = 2.49T

I still wouldn't attempt that 120FT Oak fell though!

Thanks Ekka it has been fun!
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Ekka, the 17.63 off centre......
this is as far as I got

17.63 = a

a = 100 tan 10 = 17.6m

it the same.......!?
 
Science and math uncomplicate the job, break it down to manage-able components.

But before I go there ....

Standard operating OHS procedures stipulate that nobody is to be within 2x striking distance of a felling operation. Did you not read that thread on the woman who was killed on her porch when a felled tree struck it?

We evac people all the time, you'd be a fool if you do not. Property can be replaced but lives not. We seldom do go the 2x rule but always atleast the 1.5x ... yep, even got people out of unit complexes. Like I said, there's no 100% but you eliminate risk and if ever the chit did hit the fan you know that your slate is clean.

So when you play golf and have to tee off over 200' of water you actually look at the water and change your game plan to something else? Just think of it as grass and do the same as every other shot.

Now according to your answers which may or may not be correct, the force on rope B is 25% the weight of the beam.

That tree I felled, it weighed in around 4000kg, so the force on my ropes was? 1000kg. And the rope strength was overkill.
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Here's another example. The QEII weighs 70,327T, if it anchors successfully in a 20 knot current how much force is exerted on the anchor chain when it's out at a 45 degree angle? Or, when berthed in the Thames and tied only at the bow how much force is on the rope (which is at 45 degrees too) when the tide is running out at 5 knots?

So when you look at the grand scheme of things maths and science solve problems and can help with trees as well.

By the way, there's nothing stopping you putting more than one rope or cable onto that oak.
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I'd be more worried about what it would do when it hits the ground such as rolling over or smashed limbs flying up.
 
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