Touchy Question

Flying Squirrel,

You make good points.


As I think about all the costs more, I suppose that maybe you're right, if one brings all their own gear, business license, and insurance, then $50/ hour isn't much. Its so hard to say based on all the variables of skill, risk, gear, ground crew. As I think about it more, if someone wanted to hire me without rigging gear, I'd be trying to get $50/ hour, and more if I bring in rigging and saws. Beyond that, I'd just pay them a Finder's Fee and do the job with my crew.

I'd have a hard time working with a ground crew that is inexperienced when rigging is involved. I'd probably lower out as much as possibly myself.

On a different note about CCs:

I wonder if people would find themselves in a sticky situation if injury or property damage occurs. I believe that if I hired someone to work with my crew, under my direction as a "sub-contractor", they would actually be my legal employee, and I would have to be paying Worker's Comp.

If property damage occurs, how does that one get decided between the tree service's and the CC's insurance. Leave it to the lawyers to fight out and hope to come out on top, that is have someone's coverage be binding, not a insurance company vs. insurance company fight about the other being responsible.
 
Since being a CC is how I make most of my money, less then 50% is consulting, I have a few ideas about this.

[ QUOTE ]

As I think about all the costs more, I suppose that maybe you're right, if one brings all their own gear, business license, and insurance, then $50/ hour isn't much. Its so hard to say based on all the variables of skill, risk, gear, ground crew.

[/ QUOTE ]

It all depends on the company I am working for, their skill levels and what they want me to do. My going rate for a dedicated tree company is $40/hr with one hr travel and a $200 minimum. I can regularly get a big tree down in less then five hours, and have had people want to pay me $80-90 bucks for my efforts. Storm work has been billed out as high as $80/hr and I bill to landscrapers $60-75 with a $300 minimum. Quite often I do bid work for them as a get it on the ground, and i will bring in an associate to run ropes.

[ QUOTE ]

I'd have a hard time working with a ground crew that is inexperienced when rigging is involved. I'd probably lower out as much as possibly myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do some self rigging, but it can be more of a problem then instructing one guy on the clients team as if they were a newbie groundman. If you set up blocks and use a GRCS then there is rarely any shock loading in the system. Though i have walked from a few jobs were I did not feel that the client was sufficiently skilled to assist. It does suck to drive a few hours and walk into a bee-itch of a job that you know they bit off more then they can chew. I've told people that I fell that I would be screwing them if I started the job at the price they were getting


[ QUOTE ]

I wonder if people would find themselves in a sticky situation if injury or property damage occurs. I believe that if I hired someone to work with my crew, under my direction as a "sub-contractor", they would actually be my legal employee, and I would have to be paying Worker's Comp.

[/ QUOTE ]

The sub:primary relationship has been abused enough that WI labor relations has defined it tight enough that I need multiple clients, some sort of contract with each of them, and about eight more criteria to be a legally in the relationship. For the state I am a sub, for some insurance underwriters I am an employee under W/C considerations if i do not have a W/C policy. I can get one with a self exclusion for $900, then get ~2/3 of it back after the audit. Otherwise it is ~$7500/yr. I know CC's with the Fake-comp policy, and a some also carry a disability (sompinlikdat) pol. Since I have my VA pension, I self-insure and split my billing to those who need to carry me on W/C. I'll bill a standard industry wager ($15) for labor and the remainder as equipment rental.

[ QUOTE ]
If property damage occurs, how does that one get decided between the tree service's and the CC's insurance. Leave it to the lawyers to fight out and hope to come out on top, that is have someone's coverage be binding, not a insurance company vs. insurance company fight about the other being responsible.

[/ QUOTE ]

i carry my own Liability for $1m, plus a un-owned vehicle so that I'm covered if driving the clients truck. When there is damage i ask myself what could I have done to prevent it, how can I make them whole. On one occasion I did not communicate properly, I called my insurance company. On two occasions I told them to pay me the remainder of my +$500 fee because I was partly to blame since I could have done X, Y, or Z to have prevented the situation. I am supposed to be the expert after all.

There have been a few were I have refused to take the blame, I told the groundy to do X he did Y. I did not make the cut, or control the rope.. or whatnot.

Different clients expect different things. I have some that want everything rigged, and others that expect collateral damage to shrubs, flowers and adjacent trees.
 
The way I look at this is if someone comes to me and asked me to climb a tree for them because they dont have the equipment, skill or the time to do it right, they came to me for a reason. This is what I mean by they would be at the CC's mercey. I understand the market and all, but they came to me, they are going to pay my price or go somewhere else. I dont need to go around doing other COs work for them and taking a fraction of what I would charge to do it myself, the economics just dont work in my mind. If they cant do it and wont pay me my fee, they either find somone else or the client can call me. Either way no hard feelings.

[ QUOTE ]
Part of the skill the SC brings is the ability to work with an inexperienced crew safely. That is worth the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree to a point. My rule... If I dont know the guy on that rope is competent (through referal or experience) I dont trust my life on him. I might test him with small pieces at first and walk away if things dont go right (safely).
 
[ QUOTE ]
The way I look at this is if someone comes to me and asked me to climb a tree for them because they dont have the equipment, skill or the time to do it right, they came to me for a reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is sometimes true. The majority of my clientele are small tree companies who cannot afford to keep a top-climber on payroll. So i fill in 3-4 days a month on the bigger projects so that they can get done in a more timely fashion.

So it is more of an issue where I can add value to the job and get paid more then if I was on the payroll. I also do not have to make as much of a capitol investment as the other tree services, since I do not need a dump/chipper combo, bucket, stumper... Which makes my overhead lower, and my hourly rate can be lower then a full service tree company.

Also I am ever so slowly building up the consulting side of the biz. I do wish I could use the AirKnife more then once a quarter though....
grin.gif


So, in short, it does not really pay for a full service company to sub out to other tree companies, unless business is slow.
 
[ QUOTE ]
The way I look at this is if someone comes to me and asked me to climb a tree for them because they dont have the equipment, skill or the time to do it right, they came to me for a reason. This is what I mean by they would be at the CC's mercey. I understand the market and all, but they came to me, they are going to pay my price or go somewhere else. I dont need to go around doing other COs work for them and taking a fraction of what I would charge to do it myself, the economics just dont work in my mind. If they cant do it and wont pay me my fee, they either find somone else or the client can call me. Either way no hard feelings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that's what I meant by the market. What the market will bear is what should be paid. How much could you make doing your own job vs. doing their work. That also means that market conditions dictate the rate by the amount of work etc., fundamental supply and demand. When supply outstrips demand then it is paramount for the sc to be able to sell their skills and talent at the rate they want though competitors may be available at a lesser rate.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Part of the skill the SC brings is the ability to work with an inexperienced crew safely. That is worth the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree to a point. My rule... If I dont know the guy on that rope is competent (through referal or experience) I dont trust my life on him. I might test him with small pieces at first and walk away if things dont go right (safely).

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a value added feature, your ability to train their staff to function safely as groundsmen. This may add to the initial time involved but will pay off for the CC down the road when you come back.
 
I'm always looking for new gigs, but the commute to Ashville is a killer. I drove through it every time i worked for Guy M. in the triangle.

It would be interesting for a working vacation. I've not done much out-of-state work since I got married 5 years ago.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom