The "right" way to prune

Oaks and shaping should not be uttered in the same hemisphere.

This.

My business is built primarily around pruning. A large mature tree like that doesn't need to be "shaped" per say and to try and do so could be counterproductive to the tree's overall health and appearance.

There are a few primary things I consider when looking at a tree for pruning.

1) Any lower hanging branches that may cause too much shade / overpower the yard size.
2) Any potential hazardous branches or structural defects.
3) Deadwood.

Typically if a client calls and wants their tree pruned or they say "shaped" or that it's "too overgrown" if there are a lot of lower hanging branches I will start by raising the canopy. You'd be surprised how just a few select pruning cuts can completely transform a yard and open the area up.

Then I will climb throughout and remove any deadwood, take out some branches if there is a lot of crossing / rubbing branches, remove suckers on the trunk, etc.

But only take out what you think needs to be taken out. You don't want to take out too much because that isn't good either.

Something to keep in mind is when people say they want their tree "shaped" or "trimmed" they themselves may not always know exactly what they are looking for. Wanting your tree shaped or trimmed could mean different things to different people.

As a tree care professional / arborist, it's your job to educate potential clients on what you think should or should not be done.

Me personally, I will not do anything that goes against my recommendations regardless if that's what a client wants. I don't care how much money the job is worth. I believe integrity as an arborist / business owner is important and I don't feel good about doing something to a tree that I know could potentially create issues down the road. But that's just my opinion.
 
This.

My business is built primarily around pruning. A large mature tree like that doesn't need to be "shaped" per say and to try and do so could be counterproductive to the tree's overall health and appearance.

There are a few primary things I consider when looking at a tree for pruning.

1) Any lower hanging branches that may cause too much shade / overpower the yard size.
2) Any potential hazardous branches or structural defects.
3) Deadwood.

Typically if a client calls and wants their tree pruned or they say "shaped" or that it's "too overgrown" if there are a lot of lower hanging branches I will start by raising the canopy. You'd be surprised how just a few select pruning cuts can completely transform a yard and open the area up.

Then I will climb throughout and remove any deadwood, take out some branches if there is a lot of crossing / rubbing branches, remove suckers on the trunk, etc.

But only take out what you think needs to be taken out. You don't want to take out too much because that isn't good either.

Something to keep in mind is when people say they want their tree "shaped" or "trimmed" they themselves may not always know exactly what they are looking for. Wanting your tree shaped or trimmed could mean different things to different people.

As a tree care professional / arborist, it's your job to educate potential clients on what you think should or should not be done.

Me personally, I will not do anything that goes against my recommendations regardless if that's what a client wants. I don't care how much money the job is worth. I believe integrity as an arborist / business owner is important and I don't feel good about doing something to a tree that I know could potentially create issues down the road. But that's just my opinion.
Would you take out a healthy tree because a client wanted you to?
 
You don’t think taking it out is harming it?

Big difference between removing a tree and deliberately harming a tree through an improper pruning job.

Sometimes healthy trees need to be removed because they could pose a hazard to a house being too close, etc.

But performing a hack job pruning is unprofessional in my opinion, I don’t care how much money you stand to make.
 
Big difference between removing a tree and deliberately harming a tree through an improper pruning job.
Every cut you make to a tree, removing crossers, suckers, thinning, it’s all creating wounds, you are harming the tree, deliberately.
Sometimes healthy trees need to be removed because they could pose a hazard to a house being too close, etc.
You’re backpedaling, if a client wanted a healthy tree out, that posed no threat to property purely because they wanted it gone you’d do it wouldn’t you?
 
Every cut you make to a tree, removing crossers, suckers, thinning, it’s all creating wounds, you are harming the tree, deliberately.

You’re backpedaling, if a client wanted a healthy tree out, that posed no threat to property purely because they wanted it gone you’d do it wouldn’t you?

Your argument is completely flawed and I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at here.

There is a huge difference between pruning a tree according to proper pruning practices, or removing a tree, versus hacking a tree up. Like topping a tree for instance. It doesn’t look good nor does it look professional.

Making a proper pruning cut so the tree can recover is acceptable. Performing a hack job that could cause lasting damage and structural issues in my opinion is not, regardless if that’s what the client wants.

I don’t know what kind of point you’re trying to prove here.

This is a case of where what the client wants might not always be what’s right for the tree. If they want to remove it fine. But if they want to cut 45 ft off the top of a healthy pine tree because they think it’s “too tall”...then I would not do it. I would explain why topping isn’t good, offer alternative recommendations, and if they still have their mind set on topping then I would politely turn the job down.

Because I don’t want to be associated with that kind of unprofessional work.

This ain’t just about tree work, it’s also about business ethics and having integrity as a tree professional.
 
Last edited:
4f0f848126b5a.image.jpg


topped-tree.jpg
 
Last edited:
Topping is a weird subject. Nobody tops trees really up here, they strip the shit out of them. Its not engrained cultural practice. That light and airy look. There is no campaign against this sort of tree treatment and it has become standard.

I will absolutely top a tree if the alternative is removal and the tree is appreciated. Sometimes decay and structural problems leave a tree too dangerous to leave as is and cutting it in half allows them to keep a tree and not be exposed to 40 feet of tree falling on their head. immediately

My goal is to keep trees alive and serving their owners. We dont have our dog put down once it can no longer jump into the car. Folks routinely drop thousands in order to keep their old dog with no teeth alive for anothe few months. we make accomodations for it and try to continue that relationship for as long as possible.

Topping trees is sometimes a way for a customer to eek out a few more years with their tree friend.
Trees are often looked at like inanimate objects like buildings. Cutting flawed tree down is often the most practical thing to do, but we must recognize that relationships with living things is not always practical.


@Mick Demosey is it Dempsey? or demosey? Good to see you over here.
 
Obviously there may be exceptions to the rule no doubt. Totally get what you’re saying @treebing.

I’m referring to an otherwise healthy tree that doesn’t have any major structural issues, etc.

People calling because they think it’s “too tall” or as discussed in the original post, they want to try and shape a mature oak like you would an ornamental tree or a shrub.

As a tree professional it’s your job to explain why something may or may not be beneficial or could even potentially create issues, offer alternative solutions, etc.

Again, this brings me back to having business ethics and integrity, not just doing something simply because that’s what the client wants and you stand to make some money from it.

I rather lose a job but keep my self-respect and preserve my reputation then do something I think wrong and make a thousand dollars.

Everyone operates differently though. Too each their own. Just my personal opinion.
 
Last edited:
Topping is a weird subject. Nobody tops trees really up here, they strip the shit out of them. Its not engrained cultural practice. That light and airy look. There is no campaign against this sort of tree treatment and it has become standard.

I will absolutely top a tree if the alternative is removal and the tree is appreciated. Sometimes decay and structural problems leave a tree too dangerous to leave as is and cutting it in half allows them to keep a tree and not be exposed to 40 feet of tree falling on their head. immediately

My goal is to keep trees alive and serving their owners. We dont have our dog put down once it can no longer jump into the car. Folks routinely drop thousands in order to keep their old dog with no teeth alive for anothe few months. we make accomodations for it and try to continue that relationship for as long as possible.

Topping trees is sometimes a way for a customer to eek out a few more years with their tree friend.
Trees are often looked at like inanimate objects like buildings. Cutting flawed tree down is often the most practical thing to do, but we must recognize that relationships with living things is not always practical.


@Mick Demosey is it Dempsey? or demosey? Good to see you over here.
interesting way of looking at it.
Yes ‘tis I, Mick, misspelt my name signing up, thanks for the welcome.

I suppose I’m saying that the dogma surrounding pruning is just that.
There seems to be no accommodation for the context of the tree in its setting or how different species react, how can you treat a eucalyptus in the same way as an oak for example?



Just a one size fits all
 
Last edited:
Around 2007 I reduced this lime tree (basswood in the US) it is in a courtyard in front of a small rural house.
It was what we call a Maiden (never been trimmed or worked on before)
branches were brushing over the roof and it was dominating the space.
So I reduced it overall, height, sides, shaping, topping, whatever you call it, no need to go to live growth on those trees.
These photos date from 2015 when I went back and re-did it, I was at the property last year and we talked about doing it again soon.

Allowing it to continue to get bigger was not an option, neither was taking it out. I am certain long after I retire someone else will be re-doing it periodically.

In short reduction can extend the life of trees.

Species and situation dependent of course.
Interesting, around here they go unmaintained until the become so sketchy climbing isn’t a option anymore, or they fall apart.
 
I never got the sense that current pruning practices are a one size fits all; quite the opposite actually.

It was when trees were treated indiscriminately by topping, lions tailing, etc. that it was a one size fits all.

Reductions are funny because ALOT are hideous. Very few I see being done I look at and fully appreciate. I understand plenty, but rarely do I not look at them and think that’s good for the tree and client.
 
Depends on the tree, basswoods, sycamores, red oaks can take a battering and come back lovely.

Mick said:
In short reduction can extend the life of trees.

Species and situation dependent of course.



So, it sounds like you're saying to account for the species, not one size fits all.




I don't think you are advocating for the huge-cut hat rack trees Monkey showed, nor the mulch volcano. Is that right?



I recently killed a couple nice 100' + doug-firs for friends. I advocated for topping by 30-45'.
It would have taken all the important threat away.

They wanted them dead.
Worst possible outcome for a tree.
 
I never got the sense that current pruning practices are a one size fits all; quite the opposite actually.

It was when trees were treated indiscriminately by topping, lions tailing, etc. that it was a one size fits all.

Reductions are funny because ALOT are hideous. Very few I see being done I look at and fully appreciate. I understand plenty, but rarely do I not look at them and think that’s good for the tree and client.
It’s a goal driven thing. The green bits make the woody bits, and the fungal bits eat the woody stuff. Reduction to release strain on a cavity must be considered carefully. Not saying it isn’t great at reducing loading, but the balance is the fungi can digest more wood than the tree puts on.
Now weak unions etc.. same balance, more wood makes the union stronger, more leverage makes the union stronger (reaction wood), but too much leverage and well boom..
 
Around 2007 I reduced this lime tree (basswood in the US) it is in a courtyard in front of a small rural house.
It was what we call a Maiden (never been trimmed or worked on before)
branches were brushing over the roof and it was dominating the space.
So I reduced it overall, height, sides, shaping, topping, whatever you call it, no need to go to live growth on those trees.
These photos date from 2015 when I went back and re-did it, I was at the property last year and we talked about doing it again soon.

Allowing it to continue to get bigger was not an option, neither was taking it out. I am certain long after I retire someone else will be re-doing it periodically.

In short reduction can extend the life of trees.

Species and situation dependent of course.
Before I can form an opinion on this specific case I would need more info. Why specifically allowwing the tree to get bigger was not an opition and why removal wasnt an option.
 
So, I've been thinking (which can make me some money). My thoughts can be boiled into two questions. The first has to deal with the burr oak picture that is attached. It is for a friend who deeply appreciates this tree. It is located directly next to a lot, where there is a park called "oak park". It's brother tree is in that park, and doesn't look as good as this one. What do you look for/do to make an oak look good. That is my first question.

My second question, what are your resources on pruning and the art of shaping trees? Like....how to make a life size bonsai???

Thanks.






View attachment 81986
The baseline consideration of pruning an emergent tree for aesthetic is residual risk (a technical tree risk assessment term). In this case, the overall lean of the tree appears to be away from the residence, and that may bear on lowering residual risk while expanding the opportunity to prioritize (to some degree) aesthetic pruning over the health issues associated with large pruning cuts. As with a risk assessment, risk is not assessed just for a "whole tree", but rather for the whole tree, the main leaders, the secondary branches, etc. Any pruning of an emergent tree for aesthetic should be subordinated to the level of risk that is deemed acceptable for each tree structure.

I'm going to say just a little about tree health in relation to aesthetic because others can say more about health - and say it better - than I. You can kill a tree by pruning it for aesthetic. The typical scenario (such as the one above) is that a client wishes to transition a tree that has never been maintained for aesthetic into an aesthetically maintained tree. In talking with your client, manage expectations to include tree death, disease, etc. The transition from unmaintained for aesthetic to maintained for aesthetic is usually fairly brutal. A good alternative is to plant a replacement tree, keep it under training for its whole life, and remove the other tree if/when appropriate.

There is a vast body of knowledge about aesthetic pruning and its best to get in there and start making your mistakes and successes. Posted before on treebuzz in another form are basic tree forms associated (but not limited to) bonsai:


Bonsai discussions - I believe - are applicable to the end goal of aesthetic appearance, but growth suppression drives the mechanics under the hood, and this is substantially different from the more vigorous growth encouragement, culling, and redirection in garden tree (a.k.a. niwaki) care. It is questionable to lump niwaki training with the training of emergent trees, but I believe it is useful to keep one foot on either side of the threshold. I do notice that - overall - there is a lot of conversation about bonsai on this thread, and it should probably be at least mentioned to a lesser degree than niwaki. It's 2022, we're professional arborists, let's level up.

In general, one places a niwaki in order to frame it from the interior of a residence by the architecture of the residence. This is because niwaki are resource intensive to install and maintain. A niwaki pine of 8' stature is about $10,000 to purchase, and often receives two visits per year, thus approximating the rule of thumb 10% cost ratio of installation to yearly maintenance. Prior to installing it, one generally modifies the architecture of the residence to promote the magnificence of the niwaki - e.g. lowering the level of the viewing window, removing 'Murica (no offense...) wood decks, installing hardscaping (stones, berms), defining the sense of refuge/outer boundary of the garden space, etc. The tree should then "fit" within the frame. In general, this means that the tree is not immediately adjacent to the house. This level of attention and care is expressed as Gyo (~medium level of care) or Shin (roughly formal/highest level of care), in the Japanese niwaki tradition. The tree in the OP does not fit this profile, so it is not a typical candidate for aesthetic pruning.

Rather, the tree is better viewed on *distant* approach to the residence. By the time one parks curbside, the tree cannot be practically viewed and all that money appreciated. Because it is outside the (lack of) garden boundary, the client and their guests partake in only a small percentage of appreciation for it as neighbors pass by, yet the client pays for all the maintenance. That dissonance does not encourage a repeat visit. The tree is therefore a candidate for So - rustic, low-level aesthetic care, or just ordinary reduction. Niwaki in their truest form should be like dragon eggs perched amongst mounds of treasure. They should create a sense of longing and desire for all that nature can be. That is where your client's money should go.

Often when I approach a tree for aesthetic pruning,, I try to distill the essence of the tree. I look at its normal growth habitat. I look for the most attractive take-no-prisoners line from the base to the top. Usually that line weaves/"has motion" without interruption by a straight section. The weave is hopefully larger at the bottom and gets smaller with height. Rarely, the tree is irregular and the "weave" is irregularity - no regular pattern should be allowed to persist. There are other patterns that await distillation, and everyone distills something different than everyone else. Sometimes it is necessary to make very large cuts to distill that line. The bigger a tree is, the less willing I am to make those cuts. The establishment of a main leader is not everything, but it constrains which secondary leaders can be kept or removed. This is an area of aesthetic pruning that is in convenient agreement with the basic precept of reduction pruning -subordinating to the main leader. I speculate that just as people can identify a sense of comfort in tree shapes and structures that offer refuge from predation, so perhaps they can identify comfort in empirically stronger structures... It seems to me that even in multileader styles, codominance is usually not aesthetically preferred. How nice! The OP tree has a line that goes from left to right (bottom to top) for the first ~20 feet then gets really busy. Typically, each union should have only two branches emanating from it. Typically, each elbow should have a single branch emanating from the outside side of it. There are sundry violations of those principles in that tree. It's a normal and busy shade tree, which is nice and fine. To correct those aesthetic issues you would need to make many large interior removal cuts, which wanders the mind back to tree health....

Aesthetic pruning is now a certificate-level pursuit:


Any serious aesthetic pruner should consider being involved with this organization. Not saying you have to... I'm reading the Sakuteiki right now, which is another way to go about it...

Each of these topic areas - structure, health, and aesthetic - involve the three questions: Should I do it? To what extent? By what path?

My advice, having not been there, is to go inside, look out the highest-use windows (kitchen sink, living room) and create the conditions in that frame that precede the installation of 1-3 niwaki that can be maintained at Gyo/So level. If the frame needs work, tell them that as their arborist you recommend that they first pick up sledge hammers and make a hole in their wall.
 
Before I can form an opinion on this specific case I would need more info. Why specifically allowwing the tree to get bigger was not an opition and why removal wasnt an option.
It is a key feature of the property, giving shade and character.
I explained why we couldn’t let it grow unrestrained in the post.
 

New threads New posts

Kask Stihl NORTHEASTERN Arborists Wesspur TreeStuff.com Teufelberger Westminster X-Rigging Teufelberger
Back
Top Bottom