The Lies of Workers Comp and Illegal Aliens.......

DanielSon

DanielSon

Location
US
Talking with the potential client about the worst hackers in town who quoted half my price to them the day before......

Me>>>>> "So their bid was half the price? Let me ask you, is workers Compensation insurance important to you?"

Client>>> "Well,,,,,, We won't hire anyone who dosen't have insurance....."

Me>>>> "Ohh great! So you are not REALLY considering them?"

Client>>> "well.... They SAID that they were "fully insured".....?"

Me>>>> "So checked that they have workers comp,,, right?"

Client>>> "They must be insured! (And hear comes the best line of all)... Because my neighbor used them and they did a good job...."

So I am thinking in my head..... (What?????? Are you serious??? Are you REALLY going to say that with a straight face? You are trying to convince me that you ACTUALLY believe that crap? REALLY????)

I just wish they would be truthful and say:

"Look Mark.. Honestly, we just want the cheapest price we can possibly find.
--No,,,,, we really DON'T care if that means 25 tree guys have take time to drive out to give us the FREE estimate WE ARE ENTITLED TO.
--No, we really DON'T care if their employees are illegal.
--We just care about price...
--Even though we would "like" them to have comp,,, we feel that in our "weekend warrior" assesment of the risk involved, which we feel trumps your 13 years of industry experiance, that hireing them will not be an issue.
--No... We are NOT willing to pay attention to the the FACT that they are breaking the law by not having workers comp. and hiring illegal aliens.
--No,,, We are NOT willing to discuss the fact that we are actually comparing a criminal's quote to your quote...
--Yes... We actually ARE trying to convince you that we are talking about the same level of service as your's....."

But rather than being honest (or possibly they REALLY ARE that dumb....sigh...) They arrogantly just look at you like you are a highway robber. And they choose to ignore the story you tell them, that happened only two weeks ago, a mere 5 miles away. A story about a similar situation with a different tree service who claimed to be "fully insured". Then their climber fell and died. Now that home owner is facing a million-dollar lawsuit from the family who hired a contingent based lawyer firing everything in his arsenal in order to stake claim on the homeowner's retirement plan. And all the while, the tree service is simply re-incorporating under a different name to continue to criminaly jack up the market because he doesnt have enough balls to sell quality instead of price......

Am I bitter???? Well, maybe just "tired of the lies" would be a better description.

I love tree work. I love trees. I love spike-free climbing and pruning a tree to perfection. I love moving heavy stuff around with equipment. But the lies have forced me to sell all of my expensive gear and scale down.

I just can't keep doing it. Day after day facing bids where clients are either too dumb, too broke, or too arrogant to hire a legal company.

You guys in the middle states likely are not feeling it yet quite as much. But CA, NM, AZ, TX, FL, and GA are getting hammered. Heck, in Atlanta I would estimate that only 5% to MAX 10% of the climbers are legal.

But to you middle states, just wait. In 10 years the migration will affect you too. I remember 7 years ago talking to a TS owner in Houston. He was so down because of all the illegall-alien owned tree services were killing his profits. At the time Atlanta didn't have that problem. Now we do......

So many illegal tree services. So much noise.

And the REAL truth is....... If you are only running one-crew, it is almost a 100% certinty that you are breaking the law with either: 1. taxes, 2. ilegal aliens, or 3. workers comp. (Either that, or you are not making a lot of money.)

Because of all the law breaking that now happens, I can not stay profitable to the level that once attracted me to the business, with out either breaking the law in some way, or scaling up to 3 crews in order to tripple small level of profit that comes from playing by the rules.

Honestly, I feel sad. Because I really like the business. I have some really great memories.

But if playing by the rules means I only take home 60-80K a year, I would rather ditch the stress, and the 65 hour weeks, and go get a job where I am done at 5:30 and can hang out with my kids.

I will still be doing tree work here and there. Maybe even a storm. But long term, I think I am headed for software development.

Danielson
 
That's quite the rant. I feel your frustration and although i don't experience the same issue, i certainly am still competing with a*holes who don't know what they're doing. Not sure what the answer is.

Perhaps that we should be grouping together with media campaigns on how to hire qualified people. I'm thinking of dairy farmers and their collective might in advertising the goodness of milk (it worked, we all drink a lot of milk and i can't think of a more disgusting drink, seriously it comes from cows!)

Maybe we should all give .5% of sales to isa or tcia to fund a massive advertising campaign. I'm just thinking out loud. In reality i have enough work not to worry about it but i can't stand being undersold by a douchebag.

Oh yeah, don't quit, just keep promoting your professionalism and hopefully you'll make it out on top after this "recession".
 
Re: The Lies of Workers Comp and Illegal Aliens...

I'm up against a guy underbidding saying he is fully ins. And does work comp. But lost his house, is in jail every 6 months for steeling equipment and now lives in a ghetto motel on the outside of town. Yeah right he pays ins. TOTAL HACK
 
Nuthin,

It was quite a rant. I also find it funny how few people commented. Makes me wonder just how many people really are playing by the rules here.

I HIGHLY doubt that I will ever be gone for good. Taking down trees is just too much fun.

But it is a lot less fun when I am FORCED to do it. Especially at cheap prices.
 
I think its worse competing in the removal world, and regionally.

I live in timber country, with a poor timber market and a lot of out of work loggers. Even had one old logger lie to a community manager about my equipment and skill level (never having met the guy), and it was a relatively easy job.


Not only is there competition against illegal operations who don't pay WC or employ IA. There is the segment of people who will work it legally as far as employees and WC, but put them in super dangerous situations. I don't compete well against "get 'er done" shortcuts that endanger the lives of employees.

I think that you are forced to sell yourself better against the others. Perhaps get regulators involved from your fed, state or local gov't in regards to these people, if you know and can prove that they are hiring illegals or not paying WC.

People have payments and debts to pay, so they have become very low bidding to stay busy enough for payments. A guy bid $3200 to remove (9) 60-120' doug-firs from a backyard. He's going to sell the logs, and take the money, but the trees are not worth that much, and it will take a mini-x, at least, to move the logs to a loading point, then trucking costs, to move them to the log yard.


Do you feel like you have moved to new levels of efficiency or were super streamlined before, or are you operating in the old ways that worked in the old market?
 
[ QUOTE ]

--No,,,,, we really DON'T care if that means 25 tree guys have take time to drive out to give us the FREE estimate WE ARE ENTITLED TO.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is why we should all stop the free estimates. It feels like you're shooting yourself in the foot, since you go out on a lot less calls. The thing is, most of those calls end up being sales, whereas the "free estimate" people are going with the cheapest bid no matter what. Unless you plan to lowball everything, free estimates are a waste of time.

Yes, I've had this discussion before, and, yes, I know some markets seem less able to support this attitude than mine, but I can tell you people here say the same thing about needing to give free estimates to survive, and I know that is not true at least for a few of us.
 
I feel your pain brother. I've been in business 20 years this year in the Atlanta market and I can tell you, there is no enforcment of workers comp law here in Ga at least in the tree business. I have paid millions in premiums over the years, something most of my competition has no intention of paying, and have complained to the ins commission directly about the problem several times but they have no interest in addressing the problem. It is tough out there sometimes but I believe you will find there are issues in any industry. Its dog eat dog out there right now but we need to keep fighting the uphill battle, things will improve and the satisfying days will return. There is good work out there and there are several good legal tree care companies in the Atlanta area that are staying afloat. There is a way and yes, it is a tough road. Good luck in whatever your decision may be.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

--No,,,,, we really DON'T care if that means 25 tree guys have take time to drive out to give us the FREE estimate WE ARE ENTITLED TO.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is why we should all stop the free estimates. It feels like you're shooting yourself in the foot, since you go out on a lot less calls. The thing is, most of those calls end up being sales, whereas the "free estimate" people are going with the cheapest bid no matter what. Unless you plan to lowball everything, free estimates are a waste of time.

Yes, I've had this discussion before, and, yes, I know some markets seem less able to support this attitude than mine, but I can tell you people here say the same thing about needing to give free estimates to survive, and I know that is not true at least for a few of us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that free bids for removals are going to stay the norm for a while.

I think that it is important that business owners don't give free consultations. When it is "I'd like you to come have a look and let me know what you think", it is not a bid, its a consultation.
 
I give the first 1/2 hour free, since sometimes a simple bid turns into a consult. After that, I charge $75/hr ($75 minimum), but I will deduct from the bid total if the work is awarded. This works for me in my market.

-Tom
 
I think that you can only give free estimates if you plan on only doing preservative work. That's where the better money is and that's where it's more satisfying to be an arborist. But Daniel is so right: the big removals are such a blast.

No one's going to pay you for an estimate for one removal job, the fee pegs you immediately as a more expensive option. A good way to eliminate the price shoppers but not so good if you rely on that section of the market.

Tom: good idea, i do a similar thing but i approach it differently. Your plan is easier for a HO to swallow.
 
Well, don't get mad, but, this sounds like the problem is the client's. We don't do residential, (much), but it is much easier to deal with a board that is looking for a tree care company to tell them what they need. Good reason to go out to bid. The residential we do, hire us for that reason. These are people who don't take their child to a doctor and tell him 'what to do'. Maybe it will take many years to educate, but you gotta start somewhere. It's guy's like us that post and pass stuff on. Just gotta hang in there!
Jeff
 
Our company charged for all estimates only $20 but it had Great results, it reduced the number of calls the salesperson went to, but our revenue actually increased quite abit.

And most of our work is removal work.

By charging for estimates we weeded out those potential clients who would just hire an illegal company anyway.
 
[ QUOTE ]
......

Client>>> "They must be insured! (And hear comes the best line of all)... Because my neighbor used them and they did a good job...."



[/ QUOTE ]

Reminds me of a lady near here who hired me to prune a pine tree.

She hired another so-called service because they did the neighbor's pruning. Then paid them a down payment, and they didn't show up.

Working for the neighbor is not good enough, especially if its the first time through.

Now if the neighbor was trusted and validated all the facts first, that might be different.
 
We do not do "free estimates." $25 for every estimate, no matter how close or far away it is. We take that $25 off the price of the job if we get it. It is working - we are getting the kind of customers that we want. Customers that appreciate the knowledge, experience and expense to run a business. Good Luck!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Our company charged for all estimates only $20 but it had Great results, it reduced the number of calls the salesperson went to, but our revenue actually increased quite abit.

And most of our work is removal work.

By charging for estimates we weeded out those potential clients who would just hire an illegal company anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a good idea.

I do something different, but it falls into the "weeding out" way to doing things.





cool.gif
 
what makes you think the software business will be any different. Now you'll be competing with Indians and Chinese who have had undoubtedly a better education than you. On top of that, you'll get fat and start having health problems. stick to trees.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Indians and Chinese who have had undoubtedly a better education than you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, That is an assumption. I have worked with quite a few, and they may know how to code, but coding software and making software work are 2 separate educations.

It is really hard to run an effective business (even if it is virtual) in a cultural that you are not familiar with. Can you imagine starting a site in India to meet their needs? It would be pretty tough.
 
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