The difference between logging and Suburban Tree Work

[Daniel]

One of the problems with education for arbs (there are many) is rooted in the failure to recognize the differences between logging and GTW...

The differencs are huge, though from the look of things, it seems like very similar skills and abilities.

I don't want to get into all of them here. Just saw this video which clearly shows how dropping a tree through a forrest canopy is far more dangerous than 99% of the falling scenarios faced by arbs in backyards. Thought it could make a good thread.

This is why logging is so much more dangerous than tree work.

Something to keep in mind anytime you're dropping a tree through other canopies

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[southsoundtree]

I'm not really sure what is the same, except felling trees residentially in a forest, which I do routinely.

 

[ghostice]

This kinda struck a cord with me in another way - was working on an acreage (Firesmart) adjacent to a couple that had been worked on by a couple of experienced local fallers. In both adjacent properties (HO’s had kids in both) they’d left stumps everywhere with 6 to 12 inch sharp whiskers - everywhere. Not great for residential properties with kids running around I thought. Since the HO’s in both cases were friends of the folks I was working for, I spent a bit of time back chaining all the spikes off. Both these really experienced guys were working in their own logging paradigms, not residential. So I wondered what I might be like out in the bush working in their shoes. Cheers

 

[evo]

I'm not really sure what is the same, except felling trees residentially in a forest, which I do routinely.

That and some of my ‘competitors’ are loggers doing residential work on the side.

 

[evo]

I’d say they’re cousins, probably close enough ya don’t want to do any more than make out with em.
Sure they are two distinct specialties, but one business/crew/individual can do both very well. Or elements of both very well.

I’m a damn good pruner, and have turned trees around that others declare doomed. Im ok climber, but great at production. Yet kinda Meh on climbing removals, but one badass rigger. I can drop a stick on a dime, and I’m a good faller. But don’t know shit about bucking to maximize profit, laying out skidroads or landings..

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Duck. Proudfoot said that all it takes for a logger in Oregon to be an arborist is a pickup, chainsaw and dog

 

[evo]

Duck. Proudfoot said that all it takes for a logger in Oregon to be an arborist is a pickup, chainsaw and dog

I do recall a few classes on crown reduction on conifers and macro mulching. “You can even do it in a Volvo!” Someone yelled out on one of the slides that had the speakers vehicle with a ladder and fiberglass poles strapped to the roof.
But that was Washington. We knew better in Oregon

 

[Crimsonking]

I wish more arborists spent time in the woods logging. Logging changed the way I approach gtw. Felling in the woods allows people the chance to fail and learn the limits and capabilities of wood. When brought back to residential, it becomes clear that production is in cutting. Production (usually) drops as soon as ropes are added. Obviously, we face scenarios daily that require rigging- not arguing against that. However, knowledge and skill in wood and cutting can eliminate the need for rigging at times.

A friend who manages a tree company is a logger at heart (2nd or 3rd generation, can’t remember which). He once told me the difference between my production and that of the owner of the company he manages and the people who are trained up there is confidence in wood fiber. He and I thoroughly enjoy working together in residential, and heaven help anyone who is in walking the woods when we get to lay a bunch of trees down. It doesn’t even feel like work.

 

[evo]

I wish more arborists spent time in the woods logging. Logging changed the way I approach gtw. Felling in the woods allows people the chance to fail and learn the limits and capabilities of wood. When brought back to residential, it becomes clear that production is in cutting. Production (usually) drops as soon as ropes are added. Obviously, we face scenarios daily that require rigging- not arguing against that. However, knowledge and skill in wood and cutting can eliminate the need for rigging at times.

A friend who manages a tree company is a logger at heart (2nd or 3rd generation, can’t remember which). He once told me the difference between my production and that of the owner of the company he manages and the people who are trained up there is confidence in wood fiber. He and I thoroughly enjoy working together in residential, and heaven help anyone who is in walking the woods when we get to lay a bunch of trees down. It doesn’t even feel like work.

Truth! That confidence in wood fiber can cross over into rigging too!

 

[Crimsonking]

Absolutely! I didn’t intend to sound against anything. I get technical with rigging on the regular, because tree work. But yes, fiber experience makes everything better!

 

[southsoundtree]

Truth! That confidence in wood fiber can cross over into rigging too!

Knowing how your species tops and splits, holds and releases can mean wood- rigging instead of rope- rigging.

I commonly swing some limbs under and back, opposite the way they grow, thereby avoiding a rope.

Doug- fir cut straight down pop, but cut on a down- and-out 45⁰ hold much longer, and swing back under better.

 

[Matias]

I love swingin branches around to the other side and making one tidy pile in the DZ! Cedar give me a bit of trouble with that, but Ponderosa will do anything you want. The grey pine are so tough and stringy, I feel like I have to put a good face in nearly every cut to make it release at the right time, and they still take a lot of finesse in the back cut. I have to keep my saw especially sharp for greys to be able to push through at the right time and release it.

 

[Mick Dempsey]

the difference……

(Ps, I love the fish)

 

[Daniel]

One of the most obvious differences is that loggers tend to prefer the Humboldt, while arbs like the open ace or traditional face cuts... I know that there are a number of advantages to the Humboldt in logging that do not have much benefit in suburban scenarios, so I understand that cutting a Humboldt is an important skill for loggers, but there are many scenarios where the benefits are not there, and yet they will still use the Humboldt. That never did make sense to me. Perpaps, they do it just because it's what they are comfortable with. Perhaps it's an ego or image thing. Tough to know for sure.

 

[evo]

One of the most obvious differences is that loggers tend to prefer the Humboldt, while arbs like the open ace or traditional face cuts... I know that there are a number of advantages to the Humboldt in logging that do not have much benefit in suburban scenarios, so I understand that cutting a Humboldt is an important skill for loggers, but there are many scenarios where the benefits are not there, and yet they will still use the Humboldt. That never did make sense to me. Perpaps, they do it just because it's what they are comfortable with. Perhaps it's an ego or image thing. Tough to know for sure.

I disagree, there are plenty of places for humbolts in arboriculture. Pushback can be significantly reduced with one. Same with spar felling. Anything going up hill gets one automatically.
I’m actually dumbfounded on why you are thinking conventional is best for residential work.

 

[Daniel]

I disagree, there are plenty of places for humbolts in arboriculture. Pushback can be significantly reduced with one. Same with spar felling. Anything going up hill gets one automatically.
I’m actually dumbfounded on why you are thinking conventional is best for residential work.

a lot of that depends on the topography... Humbold has benefits in some residential scenarios, and they can be life saving benefits, so forgive the ambiguity, but please read carefully. To me, the most important use of the humboldt is when taking out tops.. keeps them out of your lap.... especially when the top is going through traffic on the way down...

another little understood benefit of the Humboldt is that it gives the faller a more predictable angle of separation as it tends to break off directly after the face closes, where the traditional or open face will hang on for another 10-15 degrees of movement before the hinge fails. This is particularly important when throwing tops..

and yes, the pushback is another considerable effect, but again it depends on the trees you're cutting. It's almost NEVER been a concern when cutting eastern hardwoods.. And I almost never fall trees up steep hills, but when I do, I prefer a Humboldt.

What I AM refering to is a lot of videos showing the use of the Humboldt as a falling cut when the log is junk and the faller has less than expertise in matching cuts etc.. In these sceanrios it would be much more practical, faster, easier and more reliable to use the open face...

Guilty of Treeson calls this a "double cut tutorial" when it's nothing more than redicuplous waste of time.. and he says that on large diameter trees, it's easier to get the face cut out on Humboldts.. nothing easy here:

 

[southsoundtree]

Humbodlts are as easy as conventional cuts if you practice/ use both equally and are a good feller.

Chasing a Humboldt on a big tree means less up-high saw work.

Easier to get a big face to fall out of a Humboldt than put down your saw, drag a conventional facecut out and pick the big saw back up, again.

 

[Daniel]

Easier to get a big face to fall out of a Humboldt than put down your saw, drag a conventional facecut out and pick the big saw back up, again.

That's the same thing Jake said on the above video... HAVE YOU SEEN WHAT A MESS HE MADE OF THAT FACE CUT???

On a monster tree maybe.... not that big a deal on the vast majority of trees.... when there is a reason, sure use the Humboldt... and there can be lots of reasons... but when none of those advantages are relavant, then use the faster, easier cut.... And the vast majority of arbs are not good enough to cut both equally as well.

 

[evo]

That's the same thing Jake said on the above video... HAVE YOU SEEN WHAT A MESS HE MADE OF THAT FACE CUT???

On a monster tree maybe.... not that big a deal on the vast majority of trees.... when there is a reason, sure use the Humboldt... and there can be lots of reasons... but when none of those advantages are relavant, then use the faster, easier cut.... And the vast majority of arbs are not good enough to cut both equally as well.

It’s true though with some practice it becomes second nature.
There is situational place for conventional, humbolt or open face.
You’re looking for some sort of validation or argument again.

One of the most obvious differences is that loggers tend to prefer the Humboldt, while arbs like the open ace or traditional face cuts... I know that there are a number of advantages to the Humboldt in logging that do not have much benefit in suburban scenarios, so I understand that cutting a Humboldt is an important skill for loggers, but there are many scenarios where the benefits are not there, and yet they will still use the Humboldt. That never did make sense to me. Perpaps, they do it just because it's what they are comfortable with. Perhaps it's an ego or image thing. Tough to know for sure.

So now your validating humbolts as some sort of dark art for residential tree work?

7 times out of 10 it doesn’t really matter which of the face cuts one uses. Experience comes into play the other 1/3 of the time, as there are nuances to the each. Sometimes I’ll use a conventional or humbolt just because, for practice or knocking the rust off.

 

[Matias]

Not that it matters, but when I'm on the spar, it feels easier to humboldt. Maybe that's just cuz that's how the guys taught me, but I have tried standards, and humboldts definitely feel easier to use in big trees, little trees, good trees and shitty trees. I definitely don't know enough to offer more than an opinion here, but that's mine.