Solo pricing per hour or job?

[ClimbingTN]

I mentioned before that I only work solo. No bucket, chipper or crew. I’m trying to keep my arborist work to 1-2 days a week. I don’t want this to be full time gig. I’ve got retired guy stuff to do and the tree work funds my other hobbies. If the job is too risky, too much rigging or too big, I won’t do it. I need to get a handle on pricing. I’m usually accurate on how long it will take me do the job. My jobs take less than a day. I’m currently bidding based off an hourly rate. I would like to achieve. I “feel” like I’m not charging enough for the overall job. Is a typical tree service estimate based on man hours or some other formula? It seems I should be bidding based on the prevailing job cost to be competitive and profitable. I simply don’t know how to approach this since I’ve never done production work. I also understand that some things come together through experience and maybe this is one. Suggestions please! If you don’t want to post suggestions in public, DM me.

 

[Mick Dempsey]

Theres no point in comparing yourself to other companies, as your situation is different.
If I was hiring you in as labour only on smaller work I’d expect it to be a lot cheaper than a professional firm.

Just tell them an overall price.

 

[ATH]

Overall price...I try to never tell clients an hourly rate. They'll compare that to what they make and think it's outrageous, not realizing it costs their employer 1.5-2x what they see plus equipment and materials, and taxes and insurance, and more insurance, and time to bid, and maintenance at the end of the day, and more taxes, etc...

Rather than thinking of just your hourly rate think about "time and materials". Include how long each piece of equipment lasts? What's it really cost you to bring home $x?

Now you have your "real" per hour rate. Estimate how long it will take to do thr job - door to door and multiply that by your rate and give them that number.

 

[ghostice]

Just figure out a day rate (or part thereof) and a small tree removal rate and go from there. If they are wanting to dicker over $50 or something, then they'll probably be a pain as a customer to deal with and it's so long adios. And that puts the onus on you to deliver the tree removal pronto within agreed price/ time. Hourly kinda leaves it open $$ end for the folks and frankly with some of the louts doing treework around here, exposes the homeowner to flagrant lout-ism - I'd be leary of this kinda arrangement if I was the HO - treework or carpentry or whatever. My two cents.

 

[ClimbingTN]

I never quote to a client my hourly rate. I calculate by example : 4 hour job x rate = bid. The problem is..,a $300-400 job taking 3-6 hours seems cheap. If it’s a high or up/down climb or haul stuff off, I tend to charge more. Felling and leave it, less. I realize that I’m in a different situation and only do small-medium jobs. I should probably be happy with what I’m getting but, when I get done sometimes I think : I didn’t ask for enough. Most any other bidder isn't going to do it for that so, shouldn’t I kinda compare? That’s why I’m trying to be competitive and still “feel “ like I was paid fairly.

 

[southsoundtree]

Regardless of size of job, "side work" is likely going for Roughly half or less than Licensed, fully Insured and Bonded companies.


Lots of bigger companies won't bother with small jobs or have a minimum job price.

My minimum without employees, with a 5 minute commute with a fully stocked pickup/ equipment truck, is $3-400 for new customers. Most of my work is for an established client base... minimum for a tree done at the time of bid might be $200-300. Not a hard set rule, and that is often without any cleanup, absolutely no hauling or towed machines ( mini, stumper or chipper).

West coast cost of living.


That would be a quick prune, basic felling, etc.

Site visits (tree inspection, homeowner education, planning assistance, etc) requiring looking, thinking, talking, sketching maybe drill testing, but no other work might be $100-125/ hour. No written evaluation. Green flag, yellow flag, red flag categorization.

That avoids a free bid (price for specified, requested service) turning into an unpaid consultation and avoid low-price shoppers (minimal in my market, thankfully!).

 

[ClimbingTN]

Thanks for the comments. Good points all around. I’m fully insured. They don’t require bonding here. They don’t even require a business license if you’re under the gross receipts amount. I’m still debating the licensing again and I have been before. I’m also professionally trained and I don’t consider myself a hack. Being solo also has some advantages. I work when I want and I don’t have to worry about a helper getting hurt.

 

[ClimbingTN]

Here’s an example from the other day. I did this for $300. It required climbing twice to rig over a fence. The limbs were left per homeowner’s request. It took me about 3-3.5 hours of work and another 30-45 minutes door to door and load/unload my gear. Afterwards, I thought it should have been $500-600. Maybe? There was access so a bucket truck would have probably been done in an hour.

 

[Treemuel]

I work mostly solo with an occasional helper and just a truck and chipper. I generally leave material onsite (including chips) or sub out hauling off logs. Because of that, it seems I usually offer a better price than a lot of other outfits around here (certainly not all). Still, there are some jobs where I make much more than I “should” on a per hour basis, but that’s because I try to factor in complexity, risk, liability exposure, etc. when I bid jobs. I’m definitely still learning when it comes to pricing, but I feel the best about jobs when the customer and I both end up feeling like we got a fair deal. I think in some ways the economics off skilled labor should be based more on the overall “value” of a particular job rather than merely how long it might take. The question of value is something that each of us have to navigate based on our markets, clientele, overhead, experience, etc. All that being said, if you feel like you’re not charging enough for certain jobs then you probably aren’t. It’s your business, even if it’s only part time, and you should treat yourself fairly in how you bid jobs.

 

[Boomslang]

$200/hr for myself, truck, and chipper or $1500 for an 8 hour day (shop to shop) are my set rates. Those are for people who don't know what they want or I can't be bothered to go look. For example, if I get a call about brush chipping I don't go look at the pile of branches. I tell them it's $200/hr with a one hour minimum charge (even if only takes 10 minutes). There are also occasions where people ask for a day rate if they have a lot of work, but can't afford to do everything at once. That way they can prioritize and they know what they're getting.

 

[ClimbingTN]

I work mostly solo with an occasional helper and just a truck and chipper. I generally leave material onsite (including chips) or sub out hauling off logs. Because of that, it seems I usually offer a better price than a lot of other outfits around here (certainly not all). Still, there are some jobs where I make much more than I “should” on a per hour basis, but that’s because I try to factor in complexity, risk, liability exposure, etc. when I bid jobs. I’m definitely still learning when it comes to pricing, but I feel the best about jobs when the customer and I both end up feeling like we got a fair deal. I think in some ways the economics off skilled labor should be based more on the overall “value” of a particular job rather than merely how long it might take. The question of value is something that each of us have to navigate based on our markets, clientele, overhead, experience, etc. All that being said, if you feel like you’re not charging enough for certain jobs then you probably aren’t. It’s your business, even if it’s only part time, and you should treat yourself fairly in how you bid jobs.

I have had two customers give me a bonus for a good job and they thought my price was more than reasonable. Fair deal and both happy. I've always thought that skilled workers should get paid for what they know and the value they bring too. Not everyone can climb and cut but, those that do should be paid accordingly. Thanks for sharing. Craig

 

[ClimbingTN]

$200/hr for myself, truck, and chipper or $1500 for an 8 hour day (shop to shop) are my set rates. Those are for people who don't know what they want or I can't be bothered to go look. For example, if I get a call about brush chipping I don't go look at the pile of branches. I tell them it's $200/hr with a one hour minimum charge (even if only takes 10 minutes). There are also occasions where people ask for a day rate if they have a lot of work, but can't afford to do everything at once. That way they can prioritize and they know what they're getting.

That's good to know for that type of situations. I get a photo sent asking how much and I say I have to come look. I've actually had a few recent one where they thought it was unreasonable to look. I may try your approach next time. Thanks for the advice! Craig

 

[Brando CalPankian]

Never tell them the rate. Give them the price. And price it for what it's worth to you. Doesn't matter if it's $300 an hour, if that's what it's worth that's it. They either buy it or they don't. Like you said, it's side work

 

[southsoundtree]

Bid much more, as you are legit.

If you get turned down, you're only trying to fill a very small availability. There are more trees out there. You're not needing to keep a crew or financed machines busy.



Would you try to break down that job's expenses and compare to the bid price and $500-600 idea.



Start clocking all hours into the jobs for good data.

 

[Matias]

I have been hesitant to say it, but in your example job, it looked like enough work that I would have charged $500 and still felt like I was being generous. Let me back that up by making a few things clear. I don't have yet, nor have I ever had the license or insurance. I could MAYBE get insurance, but I am a long ways off from the hours requirement to get licensed in CA, and don't even have enough hours to get ISA certified. I have been told by guys with many decades of collective experience that I am a better climber/rigger/cutter than the larger percentage of the locally available climbers. So, I'll bid what I feel my work is worth, and consider how much I am not spending on insurance and whatnot. The key to my thinking is that I can see that most folks around here, like most places it seams, will just chop your tree up horrifically. I have been meaning to take a little tour of the bigger city to my north to show off in the bad tree work thread. Even my town hacks their own trees up horribly. The new city arb- if they didn't just sub it to the lowest bidder- massacred some of the oldest trees downtown- some extraordinary sycamores, and mulch volcanoed some new plantings. I charge what I charge based on the quality of my work, and I don't care at all when I don't hear back from folks. I have seen many of those jobs half assed by someone else after I advised them on what to do, and I don't care. The folks that hire me nearly always send me more work when their friends/family need it, and I have almost never been hurting for work. When I really want/need it.

 

[ghostice]

I have been hesitant to say it, but . . . . . The folks that hire me nearly always send me more work when their friends/family need it, and I have almost never been hurting for work. When I really want/need it.

And may you be blessed to be paid, in addition to $$, with a smile, a thank you card or perhaps a tin of still warm chocolate chip cookies fresh outta the oven . . . Cheers guy !

 

[Matias]

And may you be blessed to be paid, in addition to $$, with a smile, a thank you card or perhaps a tin of still warm chocolate chip cookies fresh outta the oven . . . Cheers guy !

Last client gave me a 385 liter propane tank, and the one before, a 7hp rototiller. It seems to work out in the end more often than not.

 

[rico]

I have been hesitant to say it, but in your example job, it looked like enough work that I would have charged $500 and still felt like I was being generous. Let me back that up by making a few things clear. I don't have yet, nor have I ever had the license or insurance. I could MAYBE get insurance, but I am a long ways off from the hours requirement to get licensed in CA, and don't even have enough hours to get ISA certified. I have been told by guys with many decades of collective experience that I am a better climber/rigger/cutter than the larger percentage of the locally available climbers. So, I'll bid what I feel my work is worth, and consider how much I am not spending on insurance and whatnot. The key to my thinking is that I can see that most folks around here, like most places it seams, will just chop your tree up horrifically. I have been meaning to take a little tour of the bigger city to my north to show off in the bad tree work thread. Even my town hacks their own trees up horribly. The new city arb- if they didn't just sub it to the lowest bidder- massacred some of the oldest trees downtown- some extraordinary sycamores, and mulch volcanoed some new plantings. I charge what I charge based on the quality of my work, and I don't care at all when I don't hear back from folks. I have seen many of those jobs half assed by someone else after I advised them on what to do, and I don't care. The folks that hire me nearly always send me more work when their friends/family need it, and I have almost never been hurting for work. When I really want/need it.

You really should get yourself some general liability insurance bro. 2 million in liability for a one man outfit in California will probably cost you around $3500-$4000 a year, and you will sleep much better at night...

 

[Matias]

You really should get yourself some general liability insurance bro. 2 million in liability for a one man outfit in California will probably cost you around $3500-$4000 a year, and you will sleep much better at night...

I only do a couple of jobs a month on my own, so side jobs only account for average $5k a year over the last 5 years. Not worth it yet, and I don't think about the hourly rate too much, but I work extra carefully on my own so as to never fuck up. I am very upfront about this, and one lady even claimed that she was able to get a one day rider on her homeowners for having a friend do the work.

The contractors I work/ed with have done some sketchy shit and I have gotten to learn where many limits are on other peoples dime. I have also been aiming for and doing more straight consultations

 

[Fivepoints]

Thanks for the comments. Good points all around. I’m fully insured. They don’t require bonding here. They don’t even require a business license if you’re under the gross receipts amount. I’m still debating the licensing again and I have been before. I’m also professionally trained and I don’t consider myself a hack. Being solo also has some advantages. I work when I want and I don’t have to worry about a helper getting hurt.

You have a workmans comp policy on yourself?