Smaller Retreival Ball Solution

[Jimmycrackcorn]

Well i was going to post this where i figured the gear forum was but i see a ton of gear talk here & i figured there's more traffic.. so move me if ya want.. i won't get butt hurt..

I need a Retrieval Ball/Cone solution for a 19mm ring & ring setup.. I just had a small adjustable Friction saver spliced/sewn up with rig rings.. before i landed on which size rings to use there was much debate within myself as to which rings to use with the rope options available & compatibility with the sewn eye on my climbing line. I ended up getting fed up with obsessing on what to do & feeling like i was compromising so I just ordered the setup with two small rings figuring I would save on bulk on the lanyard side & the adjustable part with the ring would be more compatible w/the hitch cord i was choosing... 12.4mm lanyard & 10mm adjuster prusik (i was originally having to use med rig rings with 10mm & it just didn't feel, sound or look right, all just to pass a sewn end on a rope that should have had a Slaice Splice from the beginning had wesspur not told me sewn was the only option).

Honestly, i just got fed up trying to figure it all out without physically seeing it & after all the mindf@#$ing, i now just realized... how the frig am i going to retrieve it with it having two rings of the same size! For those that don't know what I'm referencing... The retrieval balls that I have, as well as all I've seen in the market, aint going to get pass the first ring hole, nor the second..

The rings are 19mm-3/4 All Gear. I just wrote Sophie @ Engrope an email & asked her to have her team brainstorm on it. I figured y'all may already have a solution for using two small rings & retrieval that im just not aware of.. Or maybe yall just don't go full retard when ordering.. Either way, Im obviously going to have to attatch another device to it to act as a retrieval point, like the pully saver has.... But what..? What's going to be smaller than say, DMM's smaller thimble prussik that goes with their small yellow cone.. (in which the thimble is 19mm to be exact & so the yellow cone is obviously larger than 19mm). However, my small rings are 19mm I.D.

So what I need is, a thimble prusik, a biner, some sort of opening smaller than19mm with a ball that's compatible, but also smaller than 19mm. I plan on using hand spliced ropes from here on out as im told they will pass these 19mm rings.. no more sewn splices for me..

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[TCtreeswinger]

Make the adjustable ring a larger one. No need to reinvent the wheel? Or am i missing something

 

[evo]

just use a welded ring found at any hardware store, a short length of throwline tied to the ring in a loop. Prussic for non eye ropes and girth in the eye of a spliced one.

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

Make the adjustable ring a larger one. No need to reinvent the wheel? Or am i missing something

Haha.. chyeah.. i almost said that in my post.. "reinventing to the wheel"..

The whole purpose of not using a larger ring was the compatibility on the adjustable part of it.. anything larger would be huge for the 10mm cord.. if anything I'd go larger on the 12.4mm lanyard side of it & keep the small ring on the adjustable prusik part... Trust me I've thought it over & over & over.... This thing has no use to me with large clunky rigging rings that I'll possibly be hanging on the harness at some point.. In fact, i would have gone smaller if the I.D. didn't get more problematic, but they only have 3 sizes. I should have just gone with a traditional style ring but the place i was dealing with didn't have them & i don't feel like peicing it together so i decided on using the Rigging rings they offer & having something different..

Either way.. what's done is done.. it's set in motion. I know there's a solution, i just need a little thinking outside the box. Something like a 15mm ball & a 13mm thimble..

I bet i could find something from rock climbing.. they tend to use pretty small stuff..

 

[JeffGu]

...maybe yall just don't go full retard when ordering...

Bingo.

...large clunky rigging rings that I'll possibly be hanging on the harness...

I would think weight would be the issue, not size. There's a limit to how small you can make things and still have a life support rating. Since the adjustable part is a prussik, wouldn't it be simpler just to use a Petzl Ring Open on any old prussik eye-to-eye cord you have laying around? That would give you a larger ring and all you would need is a ball that stops at a 19mm ring.

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

just use a welded ring found at any hardware store, a short length of throwline tied to the ring in a loop. Prussic for non eye ropes and girth in the eye of a spliced one.

Ahh.. right right.. in think i follow..

Actually you just reminded me of an idea I've seen elsewhere.. i could use a small 10x7 harken ring or something like that, girthed, cinched with a thin tied loop prusik or something. Could probably even use pushed against other two if i used some high rated 5mm tech cord & the hand splice happen to fit through.

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[Jimmycrackcorn]

Bingo.



I would think weight would be the issue, not size. There's a limit to how small you can make things and still have a life support rating. Since the adjustable part is a prussik, wouldn't it be simpler just to use a Petzl Ring Open on any old prussik eye-to-eye cord you have laying around? That would give you a larger ring and all you would need is a ball that stops at a 19mm ring.

Are you suggesting i take the rig ring prusik off & use the petzl on a loop or whatever instead?

However, in essence id be pulling it down/retrieve backwards, right? Using the 19mm ring as where it catches?

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[JeffGu]

Yes, if you just have a sewn eye on one end of the climb line, you have to pay attention when installing the FS to get the climb line going through the right way for retrieval, but the FS doesn't care which ring you go through first. If you have sewn eyes on both ends of the rope, of course, it doesn't really matter because you can hook the throwline for retrieval onto which ever end will pass through the large ring first, then the small ring as you pull it up. If you hook the retrieval ball directly to the climb line and just bomb the FS down, the same is still true. If you use a throwline for retrieval, you can control the descent of the FS so it doesn't bonk anybody on the head or bust up grandma's prized azalea bushes.

A ring open is large enough diameter for most sewn eyes to go through, and you can just attach it to any prussik cord with an eye on both ends. They're aluminum, so not very heavy. They are rated rings, and it will be in basket mode, so I wouldn't be worried about using them. I've actually used them for this purpose.

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

I gotchya... Thanks for the detail..

What i have coming is something like this incase it was hard to picture. Difference is, is that rings are the same size & it's rope & hitch cord. (See way down at bottom).

I actually ordered it as 28ft.. 20ft of it im planning on using to make another one, however with a large spliced eye to pass something through - pully, ring whatev.. I honestly bought it to try my hand at learning to splice otherwise i would have ordered the bare end with the large splice already.. Its something i really need to pick up & learn.. paying someone $20 everytime i don't want the downside of a knot gets freaking expensive. However.. ive heard splicing these rig rings into prussiks can be tricky..


Besides all that, just a general question here.. is there some sort of small cinching device that can be used to keep a girth hitch from releasing when not loaded? You know something that might go around the rope above & right up against the hitch? Like if i had a big dead eye & girthed it around a rigging ring.. something that will keep it from backing out or coming loose.

 

[Brocky]

Slide a rubber grommet over the loop of the girth hitch to hold it in place.

 

[Jehinten]

For what it's worth, I thought of using a petzl open on an eye splice that I already had (end of a new rope got nicked) to make a friction saver. I was informed that the petzl open may not be hard enough for the friction, and constant running rope through it. I ended up going a different route.

Speaking of different routes, could one of your rings be replaced with a quickie, carabiner, or screw link? Giving you the size difference you would need. I have a multipurpose sling, it can be used for srt redirects or a non adjustable friction saver. It uses a rock exotica pirate carabiner and a ABR #2 rigging ring. When using it as a friction saver, I can use a DMM ULTRA O to retrieve it.

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

Slide a rubber grommet over the loop of the girth hitch to hold it in place.

Hey Brock..
How u doing friend..
Yes.. i was thinking thats how that would work.. or that rubber bandit solution.

However.. will those really hold steady? I recently saw this clasp/grip type thing from petzl.. it purpose was to hold two opposing sections of rope from moving that might be wrapped around something.. I know that's wicked vauge, whatever it was used in escapes me. I know it was a very small metal contraption with two holes & a bend right in the middle... Uggh.. that's gunna drive me nuts now..haha..

Just so im not confusing the thread with whats what.. I do not have the dead eye yet where these rubber grommets would be used.. i was going to try splicing one with some of the 28ft that's coming in this friction saver were talking about. You know.. like make a 5 or 6in eye split tail out of it.

For what it's worth, I thought of using a petzl open on an eye splice that I already had (end of a new rope got nicked) to make a friction saver. I was informed that the petzl open may not be hard enough for the friction, and constant running rope through it. I ended up going a different route.

Speaking of different routes, could one of your rings be replaced with a quickie, carabiner, or screw link? Giving you the size difference you would need. I have a multipurpose sling, it can be used for srt redirects or a non adjustable friction saver. It uses a rock exotica pirate carabiner and a ABR #2 rigging ring. When using it as a friction saver, I can use a DMM ULTRA O to retrieve it.

For the time being, think I'm just going to add an additional ringed loop after the two small rig rings that way i don't have to thread anything backwards, try to pull the system out backwards causing the daisy chain to possibly have to go through a tight crotch or whatever.. (remember i plan on having a bunch of extra tail that may or may not be used in this anchor system).

Honestly..
I really need to get this thing in person as well as the new rope i ordered to see exactly what's, what, how big the tight eye is on the rope, what will pass the additional super small ring loop, what won't..etc. It's basically all going to come down to how big the tight eye is & how wide the bury is. Uggh.. my brain is shutting down on me today.. sorry if that don't make sense, it does to me, i just can't explain it at the moment...[emoji6]

Ok wow.. you know what sux.. when u buy things to make something & they take so long to get to you that in the meantime you unknowingly buy what you were trying to originally fabricate! Umm yeah.. that just happened.. package with rings just showed up, no... unfortunately... not rings that will be compatible for retreival on this thing... I think i have a shopping problem.

Remember Carlos Mencina?? Yeah.. I'm a Dee Dee Dee!

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[evo]

I gotchya... Thanks for the detail..

What i have coming is something like this incase it was hard to picture. Difference is, is that rings are the same size & it's rope & hitch cord. (See way down at bottom).

I actually ordered it as 28ft.. 20ft of it im planning on using to make another one, however with a large spliced eye to pass something through - pully, ring whatev.. I honestly bought it to try my hand at learning to splice otherwise i would have ordered the bare end with the large splice already.. Its something i really need to pick up & learn.. paying someone $20 everytime i don't want the downside of a knot gets freaking expensive. However.. ive heard splicing these rig rings into prussiks can be tricky..


Besides all that, just a general question here.. is there some sort of small cinching device that can be used to keep a girth hitch from releasing when not loaded? You know something that might go around the rope above & right up against the hitch? Like if i had a big dead eye & girthed it around a rigging ring.. something that will keep it from backing out or coming loose.

Set the girth tight by loading it and throw a few stitches in to keep it in place (after load is removed)

 

[evo]

Ive made friction savers out of a delta screwlink, and a oval. I've also made them out of rope lanyards with a steel carabiner in a tight eye, and a small ring on a prussic. I wont use the carabiner in any way other than free hanging (no spar cinching, etc.) . another option for you is a thimble prussic just for removal/installation

 

[theatertech87]

I don't remember where I found this chart, but it might be super helpful

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

Set the girth tight by loading it and throw a few stitches in to keep it in place (after load is removed)

Yes i guess you could stitch it like that... wasn't aware that was ok... However, I should have been more clear with my intent.. if I'm girthing a rig style ring with a large dead eye, it's going to be because i want it temporary.. Now i say temporary as in one climb I'll use it this way & the next i may have a pulley prusik hanging through it.. that's the type of scenario i was invisioning.. BUT...I don't want any chance of that girth loosening up... You know.. some scenario where you would girth it.. hang it on your saddle, climb tree, jossle it around a bunch & then expect it to be still girthed tight.. you know not having to fiddle before installing..

Then the next climb i may want to shove jamb a pulley through it..

Again, just so no one gets confused, right now we're talking about a completely different friction saver that I want to splice out of that extra rope i have coming on the tail of the Rig Ring saver.

Ive made friction savers out of a delta screwlink, and a oval. I've also made them out of rope lanyards with a steel carabiner in a tight eye, and a small ring on a prussic. I wont use the carabiner in any way other than free hanging (no spar cinching, etc.) . another option for you is a thimble prussic just for removal/installation

Yes.. there are quite a few different ways to make these.. hence the reason i choose a different path then most.. i saw something & said "oh.. that's kind of different, i need to have it"...

Most of the decisions i reached were based off of what the person on the other end of the phone was telling me, as I've never actually seen these rig rings in person. But how the fact that two identical rings were going to be problematic didn't throw up a red flag is rather... Idk.. worrysome?? Is that a polite way of passing some buck? I should have known.. i do know.. i just was tired of mindf#$@ing it & i think they were too..

With the amount of time we spent talking about it I'm sure they would take it back if it doesn't do exactly what it's supposed to do.. I say this as i also bought a 11.8mm rope with a hand eye @ a good discount. I bought it based on the fact they said it will pass the 3/4 Rig Rings no problem... However i just get the gut feeling it's going to be problematic trying to pass from the ground at an angle.

Again.. gotta learn to splice.. that way any errors of judgement will only cost my time.. knock on wood..

Speaking of Splicing.. i think when i get it I'm either going to add a smaller ring to the tail end or splice a larger Rig Ring where the problematic one is.

I should have just bought the snake tail i was eyeballing for weeks.. although overpriced for what it is, i think it's pretty nifty how you can add other lines to it..

Yes, a think prusik.. only thing is in order for me not to have to pull the whole thing out backwards, i will have to find a thimble/ball combo smaller then 19mm but larger then the 11.8 hand splice... However, i think i found just the thimble for the job.. US Rigging Supply has them, similar style to the 19mm gusseted dmm thimble, just smaller.. Finding a ball should be no problem either, I've found plenty of china mades pushing out pvc, plastic, stainless balls that are drilled in the center..

There's that & the plethora of other suggestions in this thread, just want something that's hard to loose.

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[Jimmycrackcorn]

I don't remember where I found this chart, but it might be super helpful

Hey dude! Thanks a bunch! Gimmie a minute.. I'll download your Backdoor Trojan in just one sec! Don't mind my browser history, someone borrowed my phone!! I swear!

Thanks bud!

Edit- What the frig! Where the hell was this thing hiding last week???

Thanks a ton.. you got any more charts like this?

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[theatertech87]

Hey dude! Thanks a bunch! Gimmie a minute.. I'll download your Backdoor Trojan in just one sec! Don't mind my browser history, someone borrowed my phone!! I swear!

Thanks bud!

Edit- What the frig! Where the hell was this thing hiding last week???

Thanks a ton.. you got any more charts like this?

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Just that one, like I said I can't remember where I found it, but it sure can save some money not having to buy everything to try out.

Btw your browser history is full of porn... Tree porn

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

Just that one, like I said I can't remember where I found it, but it sure can save some money not having to buy everything to try out.

Btw your browser history is full of porn... Tree porn

Seriously! Guy i have so much shit here I'm never going to use. I just jumped in balls deep this spring with buying gear.. was at a crossroads type of deal.. continue with the same ole same ole, or make a change.. i decided on change & then the bug bit me.

Yeah my browser is seriously screwed.. my girlfriend puts on this tight little French prusik & we watch Hitch Hiker videos together.. sometimes even a few Bull Dog Bone clips as well.. Gets pretty crazy.

 

[Jimmycrackcorn]

Hey.. Does anyone here have the small AllGear rig ring..?

I put together this adjustable friction saver & yeah.. i messed up & got to small rings.. whatev.. no big deal, this thread addressed it.. BUT.. it's not the problem now....

When i put it together i only had one rope with sewn ends that are always getting stuck in stuff, so i designed it with the intention of getting a have spliced rope. Before i passed the order through on the Rig Ring Adjustable Saver i was told that their smallest rings were designed pass their husky 1/2 bull rope with a hand splice & that everything else should as well, as the husky was the biggest. I had the person physically verify these scenarios with certain climbing ropes & splices as well to be sure....

FAST FOWARD to right now... I'm being told the only hand spliced rope that will fit is their 11mm cherry bomb... Which i had absolutely no intention on purchasing.. not only do i not want to purchase it, i do not want it.

Does anyone have these small rig rings? Can you tell me what size hand splices are fitting? I need some straight answers.

Thanks for any help..

Edit.. Got my answers..
I'm not sure but i think i may have just spoken to the owner & he's going to scratch most of the idea & come up with something for me.. Originally after i had invested alot of time discussing the design, i asked if they just had regular rings to make your typical adjustable FS. I was told no.. However, they actually do have some, just kicking at another location! So i believe they are going to incorporate them into the design or just use them straight out to make a more traditional one... I kno. i kno.. i could have just hopped on eBay & bought one for 60-80 bucks.. The kicker of it all is.. I learned how to Splice this weekend.. so if i end up with a traditional adjustable one, it's not like it would have been out of my capability..

I'll probably end up with Med rig ring, stamped aluminum ring/bound loop... or secret weapon with two size rings.

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