since the 70'S

[Riggs]

Are we getting better?
The climbers have become better, don’t know the numbers but, like to see if that makes a difference. An old School tree climber might work harder getting up a tree, but he still gets up there. Getting up, getting down and also getting something done are three different things, as long as they lead to getting the job, done, safely, doing a fine job( fill in the rest ) and getting PAID! Did we get better at this? Can we? Listen up ! Close the borders!!!! it’s going to get worse before it’s get better , and climbers wages are going to drop like a like a Gerry B Redwood Top . The ITCC climbers and the general climbing community are worlds apart. You know, or you don’t! Trees- 1 Us – 0(
Feed me! changed with fertilizing trees, in the past twenty years , the price. No room for improvement here. Us – 6 Tree- 7 .Good job researchers. (Trees one up always )
Spray me! Only thing that really worked Tree- 1 us- 0
Training, ( I’ll save those comments ) us 10- tree – 5
Cranes - Buckets – loaders - chippers
Amazing how hydraulics is side stepped, when they are a major arteries to most of our tools. Pins, cylinders, check valves, grease fittings (broke fitting doesn’t mean don’t grease it, means REPLACE it.) We’ll never have the advantage unless we truly know the tools we are using. Call this even.
I saw tree works true colors ( déjà ) after the ice storm 2014. Trees -10- us - 3
Tree work is basically Same as it ever was , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7pVjl4Rrtc
We are not winning, and we are not better. Trees 24- us -14
Maybe we need more certification…… or be a YOUTUBE ARBORIST .

 

[macswan]

What about closing borders?

What are the trees going to win when this contest is over? Did they win already? What are we playing to?

Are broken fittings on the trees team or ours?

 

[djm]

Riggs to answer your question- I think yes. Mostly because there is more research available about what helps and hurt trees. A lot of Shigo's work got published in the late seventies but didn't become mainstream till the 80s. I also think the Isa and Tcia have had an influence. Today information is faster and easier than in the 70s and that alone is a big factor- treebuzz for example. Are we better climbers in the tree or riggers? I don't know. Probably better because we are exposed to more from the internet.

 

[Bradypus]

Was talking couple of days ago with oldtimers european arborists about how it was in the past. No tree climbing harness, stranded ropes etc. And it went that way untill the 90th here. I asked them if they would enjoy oldschool climbs like some divers are practicing time to time olschool scuba dives. The answer been unanymous : hell no !

 

[Daniel]

are the ropes better, the saws, the saddles, the chippers, the knots and climbing systems? are the bucket trucks bigger? Is it easier to move wood with loaders? Are the stump grinders faster?

With all that going our way it would tough not to be better? That's all our technology.. how bout our skill sets though? Is our rigging better, our falling and cutting, our pruning and climbing methods, our hazard assessments? I didn't start til 82, and I would say of course we are better, but only marginally... except climbing technique.. there are a lot of great climbers these days... though what to do when they get up there still leaves a lot of room for improvement...

 

[guymayor]

In diagnosis and care, the industry's slid back since the '70's. Big Iron and mechanical technologies proccupy tree work. Yes we are better at killing trees and disposing of their carcasses. Urban logging is getting better, but arboriculture is backsliding, as biology is neglected.

 

[twig]

i have to agree with guy. If you dont know tree biology then you should not be pruning or caring for trees, as there is no method to the madness.

 

[oldoakman]

In diagnosis and care, the industry's slid back since the '70's. Big Iron and mechanical technologies proccupy tree work. Yes we are better at killing trees and disposing of their carcasses. Urban logging is getting better, but arboriculture is backsliding, as biology is neglected.

I think the Personal Injury Lawyers have driven a lot of thinking in this area. If it "might" fall down, it "might" hurt or kill someone, so lets just eliminate the threat. BS in my opinion! My aunt will be 100 in November, in July she fell and bruised several ribs badly. She still lives independantly and gave up driving only 2 years ago. I don't think I am going to euthanize her for falling down and getting hurt.

 

[Mark Chisholm]

Good stuff guys. Old is still good. In order to move forward though, you need to accept new ideas/technologies.

 

[djm]

In diagnosis and care, the industry's slid back since the '70's. Big Iron and mechanical technologies proccupy tree work. Yes we are better at killing trees and disposing of their carcasses. Urban logging is getting better, but arboriculture is backsliding, as biology is neglected.

Really Guy? Expand on this please. Thanks!

 

[guymayor]

Expand on what? Why?

 

[Riggs]

we got cute but we are far from pretty . !

 

[Riggs]

Same . as it ever was .......

 

[classictruckman]

these days you put your rope in the tree to climb it, back in the 70's you'd climb the tree to put your rope in it.

also these days an isa cert is a credential, back in the 70's a criminal record was a credential.

 

[Riggs]

"criminal record was a credential"

immigration is the new not me .

 

[djm]

Expand on what? Why?

Guy- what is this statement based on? We know more know about how soil functions, there has been research on trunk injections, trans laminar pesticides, how trees respond to storm damage, how certain pesticides work. How about bio mechanics week? The tree fund? It's easy to hate on the industry now. But to say we know less and have less tools available to us now than in the 70s in my opinion is false. The presence of the internet is the biggest factor in this discussion. Information from all throughout the world is available within seconds. The public's awareness of the value of trees and the environment is higher than in the 70s. Just from when I was in college in the 90s to now there has been more research and the industry has made paradigm shifts. If you wanna say the working arborist is softer now than in the 70s I will agree with that statement. To say we know less I would disagree.

 

[guymayor]

"But to say we know less and have less tools available to us now than in the 70s in my opinion is false."

I would too. I didn't say that.

 

[KTSmith]

I read the OP right off but was mystified by the scorekeeping. I don't look at arboriculture as "us versus trees". Then, as I'm reminded from time to time, I'm not an arborist!
I have been at least tangentially involved in tree care, anyway, since working on Trichoderma wound dressings in 1977 with Al Shigo and Wally Shortle. So Guy's remarks caught my eye, especially the "In diagnosis and care, the industry's slid back since the '70's". I'm not so sure of that although there is plenty of room yet for improvement!"
Some of the progress, and I do choose to think of it as progress, is simply in greater awareness of the importance of soil microbiology, symbionts and beneficial natural associates of trees, the diversity in natural architecture of roots and branches....and not just knowing these things, but trying to work within and to honor that framework.
Folks were still cutting flush and painting wounds with asphalt-y gunk. Yes, I know folks who still sell and buy that stuff, but far fewer than before! I see less wholesale topping, although yes, one does see it.
In the A-300 pruning section process, I'm struggling with definitions and thresholds for heading cuts, storm mitigation, topping, etc. My colleagues, that means you arborists, are helping me with that. My own positions have been shifting, perhaps too slowly for some and to the horror of others. Did we or did anyone have those discussions in the early seventies?
In some ways, it was easier then with diagnosis and treatment...mix up a batch of toxic stuff or even just add water to the monster spray rig and have at it. True, public support for Extension service diagnostic services is way down in many states. Not the fault of the Coop Ext folks themselves! I do regret that decline.

As for "Big Iron", I think I know what you mean, but where I do most of my site visits, in northern New England and southern California, small operations with from 1-20 employees seem to be doing most of the residential and small commercial work. That just my sense, I have nothing to back that up.
The trade associations, with whom I work....perhaps mostly as window dressing, I'll admit, they seem to be trying to provide value to their members and to the resource. I'm sure improvement is possible there to.
Yes, when Shigo and I would do trade shows together, he'd mumble about how all of the attention to climbing may be improving the quality of climbing, but that he wished the show sponsors would emphasize more about how trees function and how we can help and hinder that function.
Like I say, although I've paid my ISA dues for more than 20 years, I'm not an arborist!

 

[treevet]

bragging or complaining?

 

[Riggs]

repeating . this is a dead end industry . Make it while you can , the know not's are making more than the know . Pay to play . Keep thinking it's getting better , keep selling . Keep getting certified , before you know it , 1975, all over . !!!! Keep on Trucking !