Scary hack work

Im for the licensing too...but... it should be fedral in nature and adopt a current qualification such as the Cetified Arborist through the ISA. Any of us probably are certified already. Ther are starting to be too many different certifications and the will start to dvalue and confuse the consumer.It also will be more costly to keep up with multiple certifications. It would still fall on us for enforcement.
 
The Federal Government doesn't have a mandate to first outlaw and then dole out permission to do tree work on a general basis ("license" means "permission granted to do something which is otherwise illegal"). Some might argue that States don't either; that any such authority should rest firmly within cities, towns, or like localities as each see fit. I believe I would agree with both that and with your sentiment that there should be a well-known and meaningful standard.
 
Ekka,
I found this in the attached NSW Industry code.

9.4.1 Climbing rope
Climbing ropes should meet the following minimum requirements :
<font color="red">· minimum diameter of 11mm </font>
· three-strand, plaited, braided or kermantle construction
<font color="red">· a minimum breaking strain of 3000kg </font>
<font color="red">· made from nylon and/or polyester fibres.
</font>
Does that 11mm mean you can not use 8 or 10mm "prusik loops"
And isn't the 3000kg a bit overdone?
This keeps you away from some wonderfull equipement doesn't it.
 
[ QUOTE ]

9.4.1 Climbing rope
Climbing ropes should meet the following minimum requirements :
<font color="red">· minimum diameter of 11mm </font>
· three-strand, plaited, braided or kermantle construction
<font color="red">· a minimum breaking strain of 3000kg </font>
<font color="red">· made from nylon and/or polyester fibres.
</font>
Does that 11mm mean you can not use 8 or 10mm "prusik loops"
And isn't the 3000kg a bit overdone?
This keeps you away from some wonderfull equipement doesn't it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Treespotter, the operative word is "Should" Which roughly translates into, "We're not gonna make you, but it is in your best interest to do so. And, if you get hurt while not doing it this way then you had better have a reason that satisfies the court."
 
As for licensing, I think if we leave it up to the cities or towns then you will end up with 8 million different requirements for the same thing.

Here in the US the federal govt does not have constitutional authority to regulate intrastate commerce, but they do have it for interstate commerce.

9th amendment supposedly prevents the fed-gov from regulating that way. They could, like with CDLs, stipulate minimums that the states have to adhere to, but the licensing would still fall on the states.

If we are to consider ourselves professionals, like any professional whether it be hairdresser, electrician, plumber or doctor, then our industry needs to band together to establish a set of criteria, work with the states adn more importantly,

Police our own people and actions.

Until we do, we will continue to be subject to bizarr rulings from locals and will never get our "industrial act" together.

A great statement I once heard was "You will have discipline in your life. You can either discipline yourself, or someone else will do it for you."

Wouldn't we rather define our own boundaries and acceptable practices? Sure beats having "big Brother" ram it down our throats.
 
Good point on the ropes.

I use Samson 13mm and I just checked at their site and it's ave breaking strength is 8800lbs which is more than 3000kgs.

Also, I climb with a blakes so prussik problem solved.

I also live in Queensland where currently we have bugger all rules! Cowboy county here.

Here's another link to the Victorian Worksafe for the industry, I cant find anything on rope specs.

http://www.workcover.vic.gov.au/dir090/v...ree_amenity.pdf

But it sure has some good stuff on electrical work around page 21
 
dhuffnmu mentioned that if he saw hack work taking place, he would stop. i have worked in tree care for over a year, and i have only seen 1 tree company actuallyu working- asplundt. they were removing 2 trees so a road could be made. but other than that, i have not had the chance to see another company work. i always have my camera with me just in case, but i would LOVE to watch another company at work.
 
I've been seeing alot of this type of work here in the area hit by Wilma. I think Riggs once said "instant treemen, just add water" or something like that. Lots of guys with just lanyards and some like Tom started this thread with. Lots of bad work too, I thought of Mark's thread "2 Oaks, extra topping" today as I drove past about half a mile of topped Ficus trees.
 
Now the job is one thing to disparage. But I think it is not cool to disparage folks for their equipment (aside for basic PPE). Most folks will never own a 20,000$ chipper. I dont get it when tree folks say "what a hack, just look at his truck".

One of the worst hacks I know in this area has a beautiful truck, chipper, the full sherril catalogue, and stihl line up. However he has the mentality of a stockbroker. All he sees is dollars. The trees mean nothing. =HACK

Shoot, I like to think I do the best I can for any given tree and circumstance. Yet I will do tree jobs on a bicycle and a bike trailer. I have loaded up horse trailers with brush. I have stuffed the back of a geo metro with logs and loaded the roof with branches. I have Hauled stump grinders with my 60 HP 82 VW truck. I have started fires on the property to dispose dead wood. I have left it on the curb with a sign that says free wood. I know that lot of bigger tree companies dislike folks like me. I can underbid the hell out of them. A geo is a good bit more efficient than a F-650. A bike is a good bit more efficient than a Geo. They might disparage my equipment but I also know that the tree will be in better shape than if they had done it. The customer will be happier because they paid less. Less toxins in the air and soil and a bit more peace and quiet.

I have done removals with nothing more than a 3 strand rope (for harness and line), handsaw, and a bike helmet. I think that I did it very safely as well.
I think in fact that in this area, most of the actually good arborists are very small operations. The big companies you dont know what your going to get. Your tree might end up in the hands of the 18 year old who LOVES that chainsaw. (i was there once and I have guilt pangs every now and then for a few things I did). People seem to think though that a nice truck and BIG BIG chipper means "good arborist"

The way I look at it is. Chainsaws and trucks are enemies of trees. there is no way around that fundamental fact. Stump grinders, loaders, cranes, and the rest of these things are also enemies of trees. granted, yes, we need those things so trees and people can create space for eachother. But the more of those things you have, and the more horsepower gets thrown around wantlessly, the more trees suffer.
So frankly, I would really like to see a phase where people are not looking at success as being who owns the biggest chipper. "mine takes a 30 inch tree", "yeah well mine has a 300 horsepower hydraulic arm that prunes the tree and chips it at the push of a button"

I remember explicitly when a company I worked for got a bigger chipper. It was a very big machine and very expensive and was gotten so we would ultimatly do less chipping because chipping sucks.

Anyway what happened is that we ended up doing lame chipping jobs all the time. Land clearing jobs and stupid wack jobs that were completely dependent on the chipper being the bad ass machine it was. It was terrible however for jobs that only require a handsaw and arborist related skills. Expensive as hell to haul around and bulky as well.

Everybody became depressed from so much lame chipping work that they all became alcoholics and chronic gamblers. Not really, but my point is that bigger and shinnier dont mean better in this game.

kevin
 
The company that is in the spotlight here isn't even a tree company. They are a "moving company" hence, the moving truck to move the debris :)

I certainly understand how it isn't fair to judge the work by the equipment. My rolling stock might never have been much to look at but I'll put my treework up against anyone's.
 
"our industry needs to band together to establish a set of criteria,"
We already are, it's called ANSI. the more we promote National Standards, the more they will be followed. More specific BMP's will follow from that.

"Police our own people and actions."
This is a tougher one. Carrots work better than sticks.

Nice post on the eqpt.; type of gear well-used can make a difference in tree care, but appearances and size of machines do not.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Now the job is one thing to disparage. But I think it is not cool to disparage folks for their equipment (aside for basic PPE). Most folks will never own a 20,000$ chipper. I dont get it when tree folks say "what a hack, just look at his truck"..... kevin

[/ QUOTE ]

That was an excellent discourse...gear is gear, stuff is stuff...it is how a man applies his knowledge and skill (while using "stuff") that makes the difference.

The "stuff" can be modest or minimal...the man makes the difference.
 
I agree stuff is stuff, and I have know problems with guys trying to make a living anyway they can. I you can do a job cheaper with less equipment thats great, as long as you carry the proper insurance, and pay all the proper taxs. I hate lossing jobs to people who dont have insurance, dont pay any taxes, and pay their emplopees under the table. I dont care how good there work is.
 
This stuff goes on everywhere. I was reading in the journal of arboriculture that Lousiana has a licensing requirement for arborists. Maybe MB knows what is up. Here in CA there is a requirement for holding a contractors license but that is just insurance and business stuff. Guys ignore the law and the State is so short of money that they don't have the resources to pursue all this stuff. Tree service contractors are lumped in with the state agency that regulates the construction industry. Their concern is that workers are covered with workers compensation insurance, customers aren't being screwed, and that safe work practices are used. Master, how do you do it down there???
 
We have hacks here, just like everywhere else.

But, I think the hacks are the minority, for the most part.
 
Education-not regulation. Sometimes I want to cry when I see so many good guys actually calling for more government intervention in all our lives. Not only do I oppose licensing schemes as a matter of principle- I am a committed libertarian. I also oppose them for the very practical reason that they DO NOT WORK. Listen to the poor overregulated Brits complain sometime about the state of their industry and the "illegal" ops that operate with less costs and get most of the business. Black markets are evidence of the free market asserting itself in the face of government interference. There are 10 tree services licensed by little old Canon City. Seven of the ten mutilate trees as a matter of standard practice. 2 will mutilate for money. 1 (who could it be?) tries to provide tree care and educate customers.
 
This type of work is all too common and present in every town in every state.This is also the type of work that the the general public associates as "tree work" and it ulimatly drives down the value of legitimate and professional prices . It really gives us all a bad name and makes us all look like the lowest class of people . I am so tired of these jackasses taking food of of my table . In my town of 13,500 we have two legitimate companies and around 10 homelite hackers . I am currently working a deal with the state contractors board to set up a few sting operations to pinch these jerks and either push them to be legit or make life hard for them . Trying to convey this to the public and educating them is like talking to a brick wall alot of times , they only care about the initial price of the bid and then they wonder why they get such a crappy job . Then they have to hire a real trimmer to "fix" the disaster if even possible . Tom , not ony were these people violating OHSA standards , it was likely they were also violating state contractors laws , workers comp laws ,and possibly a local law or two .
 
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