Safety and liability

Both you and Blinky have the mentalities of 8 year olds BB.

The answers to all your questions are self evident in these threads. Yet you expect me to take your little hands and walk you back to the pics already posted in these threads that clearly show grapple fed 18 inch capacity WTC's made by bandit, complete with failsafe emergency handles in their infeed hoppers.

You two boys obviously need nurse maids to babysit you because I don't have the desire or inclination to wipe the spittle off the chins of either of you.

jomoco
 
There not failsafes! Anmything that a 1" stick can make USELESS is NOT a failsafe!

And thanks for resorting to name calling, whos the 8 year old?


Did you notice there were other questions posed to you besides questions about slippery wire rope handles inside chippers?

Your some character my friend, some character!
 
One more time in case you missed it!







here are some points that need clarification Jomoco



It's readily apparent to any fool that the manufacturer built that reinforced enclosed operators cab on their big WTC's to protect that operator from something, and its in front of the bloody feed table! Not to the side, not behind it, like every operator.
youre saying that a WTC with an operators cab, has the same dnagers as a WTC without one? I havent seen any WTC that have cabs, that also offer a handfed design of the same size/design. Can you show me one?

You need to ask yourself why this patented simple chipper failsafe last chance device is not standard mandated equipment on every dang WTC sold today, much less a decade ago when he patented it?
can you please prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that Mr. Moreys design is in fact a failsafe device?

here is the definitioon of "failsafe" from thefreedictionary.com #3 best fits your example.

fail-safe (flsf)
adj.
1. Capable of compensating automatically and safely for a failure, as of a mechanism or power source.
2. Acting to discontinue a military attack on the occurrence of any of various predetermined conditions.
3. Guaranteed not to fail: "There is no fail-safe mechanism guaranteed either to contain or to restore presidential authority" (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.)
n.
A fail-safe mechanism.
v. fail-safed, fail-saf·ing, fail-safes
v.intr.
To compensate automatically for failure.
v.tr.
To render fail-safe: fail-safed the computer against power outages.


Just ask yourself whether any WTC model of morbark or vermeer are for sale that can be hand fed, also come equipped with a loader arm and cab/screen? 2400's or 1800's for example? I think you'll find the answer is yes for both companies and others.
now a few posts later, your story changes from an enclosed operators cab, to a simple screen. The screen is there because the door swing all the way open so the operator may look into the hopper while using the grapple. Thescreen protects him from debris coming back out of the hopper while chipping.

The pertinent question is why it isn't a mandated requirement for every WTC specifically to save trapped operator's who are trapped conscious and scared treeworkers?
I would love for you to work on this issue. You should call TCI/ISA/etc and get the ball rolling. You can also use all of your contacts @ the big 3 to help move this issue forward!


I'm growing a bit fed up with your moronic advocacy for shooting down even the simplest of safety devices to keep your fellow treeworkers from a grisly death BB.

If the dang handles and cables get worn like a friggin chipper blade or bolt, you replace them!

It's called equipment maintenance BB, ever hear of it pal?
later on in that thread you reveal that Morey's invention isnt really a failsafe, more of an extrta last chance safety device that operates when properly maintained

I'm after bigger fish in this thread than you now my friend.
the truth comes out near the end. You are doing all this to make a point, and try to ruin American chipper makers, the TCIA, and ISA, along with certain employees at those companies who have been named numerous times in this thread. This also explains why you are using legal terms such as lethal, failsafe, absolute, etc

It's a blight on our entire industry in my opinion, and I don't see how Peter Gerstenberger sleeps at night while this status quo continues to take it's grisly toll almost every other month.this comment says alot about your main goal here too

I hope an American manufacturer with real morals and ethics comes along and puts everyone of these poor little frightened US manufacturers that can't quite figure out how to stop these barbaric dis-memberment fatalities, out of business, they've certainly earned such a fate in my opinionthis one too!

All these so called safety officials are apparently unable to support two man minimums to reduce these deaths, mandatory simple inhopper failsafes to reduce these deaths, or spending a red cent on real 21st century safety devices capable of saving the life of an incapacitated worker on the friggin job.is there any place in the world that has a policy such as this? or is it just the big bad mean americans?


What you and every safety official are failing to understand TH, is that thousands of small, medium and even some large tree companies use unqualified untrained men to feed these WTC on a regular basis, and the death toll will continue escalating until strict laws and regulations are in force to deal with WTC manufacturers basic safety device standards, the grisly death tolls will continue to escalate.
training would surely solve this problem!


The facts are that there are indeed WTC's with grapples and operator's cabs of the same horse power and capacities as those sold for hand fed applications by various manufacturers.really? which?
 
Jomoco, I work in the field for a small company and have seen first hand the unskilled labor brought on the job to drag brush and feed chippers.

What I am referring to is not more "shrill lecturing" but, as you pointed out yourself, way beyond that. It is a sea change in mentality toward safety and enforcement of the existing standards. From there will come a better attitude toward devices such as the one you are promoting and those that will come and improve on that. This is the way it has always happened where safety is now the first priority.

I once read an annual report of a multinational mining company where they were able to state they only had one death in that past year. That was unheard of before the standards that exist today were fully adapted.

So, enough of the rhetoric and brow beating. Noone has said they don't care about their fellow workers. Only that what you are promoting is the answer to the problem. Maybe it is an improvement but will it lead to the results suggested?
 
The mining industry is an excellent example of an industry that has made quatum leaps in it's workers safety levels over the years, both in terms of training and implementation of modern safety equipment that enhance worker safety on the job.

The thing that bothers me the most about this particular issue of chipper related deaths in our industry, is that prior to the introduction of WTC's onto the market 20 years ago, chipper related deaths were almost non-existent, chipper related injuries and maimings yes, but actual deaths involving their use were considered rare.

This is why I feel so strongly that these hydraulically fed WTC's should have mandated infeedhopper failsafe devices on them at a minimum, and see no good reason that they shouldn't have more modern failsafes on them capable of saving incapacitated operators, indeed I feel the manufacturers themselves should do so voluntarily, rather than be forced to do so by NIOSH/FACE and OSHA officials.

Why must they be dragged kicking and squealing into doing the right thing through the courts?

jomoco
 
You really crack me up BB.

Morey's actual patent has been linked to in these threads many times, some helpful fellow, I believe it was Chris or Classic T Man, posts pictures of an 18 inch capacity bandit WTC with Morey's failsafes, two of them in the infeed hoppers of two separate units, and like a sullen little 8 year old caught telling a lie, you demand I prove something already self evident in these threads to everyone but you!

You really think those bandit WTC's posted in these threads with Morey's failsafes on them somehow don't exist BB lad?

jomoco
 
They are not failsafes!


they are added safely devices, last chance grab habdles, call them what you will they aren't failsafes!!!!!!



you are also not answering the real questions here JoJo, why is that? what will your answers reveal and tell us!?

hmmmmmmmm????!!!!
 
It's your answers in these threads that are revealing BB.

What do your answers reveal to us?

That for some strange reason you feel that a WTC operator's very life is not worth a 200 dollar failsafe device being mandated on WTC's. This despite the fact that one of the owners of a major WTC manufacturer himself patented, produced and sold just such a failsafe device on his WTC's a decade ago to reduce chipper related fatalities using his chippers.

This fact begs the question of why he apparently has more concern for the lives of WTC operators than you do?

And since the ISA and TCIA have actively sought to prevent the mandating of these simple failsafe devices on WTC's as an industry standard to reduce fatalities in our industry, it further begs the very pertinent question of exactly who they are protecting, WTC manufacturers, or treeworkers in the field doing their job feeding WTC's?

It's as if the ISA and TCIA were to actively lobby against chainsaw manufacturers putting inertia chain brakes on their saws as a mandated requirement, and you agreeing with their twisted logic, despite being a chainsaw operator yourself!

Very revealing indeed BB!

jomoco
 
im not against chipper safety im against people like you strong arming manufacturers into using a piece of safety equipment on their machines that is not a failsafe, and requires a decent amount of maintenance. I have offered at least 3 times in the past week alone to assist you, and yur cause in anyway possible. I even offered to lead the march with you! I am confused why you won't clarify points, or answer questions? just 'man up' like you would have guys using large saws in trees do. no compassion for them right?



you just love to avoid questions don't you?



I haven't seen a failsafe yet, I have seen a safety device that will help prevent a death, if you fall into the hopper. provided that thed cables, ball joints, feedbar, and hydro sstem are maintained up to snuff, and provided a limb hasn't worked its way between the bar and machine blocking its use.



can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these cords are a failsafe, just like the defintion states?
 
To suggest that it's beyond a WTC manufacturer's ability to engineer an inhopper failsafe device capable of reducing fatalities of operators using their products is absurd, since two of them produced and sold that very device almost a decade ago!

The pertinent question is why that device is not now a mandated standard on all WTC's in light of the escalating death toll of treeworkers operating WTC's?

The fatality statistics showing how many chipper fatalities occured with WTC's equipped with these inhopper failsafes practically guarantee that they will soon be a mandated industry standard for WTC's enforced by OSHA despite TCIA's efforts to prevent it happening for years now.

It's a huge blackeye for TCIA and any other professional organisation professing they promote worker safety on the job in our industry.

jomoco
 
I understand and appreciate your passion, but I am dumbfounded by your inab ility to read.


can you show me a failsafe mechanism in the infeed hopped of a chipper please? all I see is an extra safety feature capable of failing without a fair amount of maintenance and caution while using a machine so equipped with this feature.

do you lack the part of elementary schooling that was taught to every other person in the world. when someone asks a question, or responds to a statement/question of yours, you are supposed to answer them. not go on a tangent about how you hate US manufacturers, TCI, ISA, etc etc etc
 
So it's your opinion that it is indeed beyond the ability of a WTC manufacturer to produce these inhopper failsafe devices despite the fact that morbark and bandit have manufactured them on some of their WTC models for years now BB?

jomoco
 
HUH!?


what are you talking about failsafe device? I don't know of any failsafe devices out there yet.

those slippery little cables are no better than Vermeers bumpbar on the chipper deck.

how's about you stop asking questions and answer some!?

man up like you told that poor chainsaw operator!

what sends more people to the hospital per year? chainsaws or chippers?

what drives insurance costs up more per year? chainsaws or chippers?

you dodging questions never gets old man!

its like that punk kid that always hung with the tough crowd, you always knew hed be the first to mouth off and the last to man up!
 
Just because I strongly disagree with your and TCIA's callous stance on WTC operator safety standards in their current embodiment today, or that I believe your stances on the matter will only lead to further escalation of chipper fatality deaths on the job, it does not mean this important issue is simply going to fade away for any of us involved. It simply means we strongly disagree with each other's positions on this life and death matter, and only time, statistics, court rulings and OSHA actions will eventually determine which of our stances on this matter will eventually prevail and become the accepted industry standard in the future.

We simply strongly disagree with each other BB. Even if every member of this forum, the ISA, and TCIA disagreed with me on my position, it still would not change my position on the matter one iota, because for me it's a moral and ethical principle of belief that will never change, period.

jomoco
 
My position is that if you answer the questuions posed to you, and clarify a few points, I will work with you and use all my resources to help with this cause. You cant go on like a raving lunatic about failsafe devices that arent. And you cant call others names and expect to get anywhere. You have to remember that everyone in the industry is reading this, thanks to you calling them all out.

You never know who is behind a screenname, I could be a 16 year old boy taking an Arboricultural class in high school, or a man with contacts and resources that could propel this further than you ever thought possible.

'Man up' and clarify the few points I have requested!








Your position is that you hate American chipper makers. You have clearly said that.

Your position is to not answer, respond to, or even acknowledge, a question or comment posed to you.

Your position is to call easily bypassed, or easily broken safety devices failsafes.

Your position is to stir the pot.

Your position is to make a statement in a courtroom.

Your position is to call member here who disagree with you, and at ISA, TCI, OSHA, ANSI, etc etc killers.
 
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