Running bowline on anchor sling

Shadowscape said:
If that is a link in your post, I can't get it to work.
I would think for two reasons. 1) Harder to untie. 2) With this I may be wrong, but I suspect it to be true that the knot would weaken the system. Knots usually case the breaking strength to be reduced in a rope system, whereas a cow hitch or timber hitch does not weaken the system as much.
My 2 cents, for what it is worth.
ps: I have a 5/8th 200' hank of one time used Polydyne that has a bowline on a bite locked up right smack dab in the center that I have not been able to untie for about 2-1/2 years now, but I keep trying.
Click to expand...
"Massage" it throughly with a rubber mallet on a clean surface, changing where you hit it each time...

or grind back and forth with a clean boot on a clean, smooth surface.
 
southsoundtree said:
"Massage" it throughly with a rubber mallet on a clean surface, changing where you hit it each time...

or grind back and forth with a clean boot on a clean, smooth surface.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that advice, but have beat on it with a rubber mallet, a carpenter's hammer, and a 3 pound sledge with no luck. I have spent way too much time trying to undo that knot. Cut it out last night so it is now a mute issue.
Not sure the rope is worth saving. The core seems to be torn quite a bit near where the knot was. I suspect it is doomed to be added to the scrap pile.
Appreciate the attempt however, southsoundtree.
 
RyanCafferky said:
When teaching rigging I always tell the trainees that my preferred method is always the cow hitch because it can handle multidirectional loading, easy to untie, and strong. The disadvantage is that it uses a lot of rope. My second choice is a timber hitch. It doesn’t use as much rope, is strong, but requires you to think about direction of loading. A running bowline is an acceptable option that uses even less rope than a timber hitch but will tend to move around more so care needs to be taken to make sure that this won’t cause issues during rigging operations. One way to limit this is to make the eye that goes around the hardware end of the sling as tight as possible or get creative with some prussik slings.
Click to expand...
I am with Ryan here. I will use a running bowline if I am improvising a hitch with a short section of rope. Directional loading is one concern, but for me it gets loose when not loaded and the Porta wrap creeps away from the tree. I hate any more slack between device and tree than absolutely necessary.

I see way too much “ sloppy” rigging these days via the intrawebs…

Tony
 
gerry beranek shows the use of the running bowline for slings in his video series and states that there is no reason to not use it as long as you stay within your SWL…
 
Running Bowline, Timber would look at as 'single bearing', right angle pull as like tinyurl.com/abok-chap21 that starts with Half-Hitch(terminating) forms of security for nip positions and evolves to Timber even with the preferred fig.8 style, 'bull-nose' of Round Turn(RT) around Standing Part(SPart)(ABoK Lesson#1669) to grab along it more aligned than shear across as usual, for more strength efficiency (some loss of host grab then tho).
.
Across time thru the pages from the sages...totally, purposefully separate, and stated to be so, are lengthwise/longitudinal pulls in tinyurl.com/abok-chap22 . Here Mr. Ashley totally discredits Timber in favor of only using it with a Half-Hitch(continuing) pre-fix to Timber to give enough architecture in Killick for the VERY errant angle of pull, and not to expect the impossible. If dragged tons of tons of stuff with rope probably have seen difference in smooth forces a Half-Hitch can make here over Timber or Running Bowline.
Timber_killik.png

.
In my terms, this is because the right angle pull is necessary across spar to grab it as 1 dimension of pull. Then to pull lengthwise with that is another dimension of pull 90degrees away. Timber alone would only be a 1D support by this model, but Killick more, can extend to the 2nd dimension. Humble Half-Hitch (continuous) is very good at this direction conversion task; and gives a 2nd grab.
.
i have gotten by on Timber, but over time consider it less proper than Cow forms etc. for the increased architecture and the fail-safe of double grab security and load sharing. From trunk of tree upwards also is not always neutral, but rather receding/tapering away ground to tilt things the unfavorable direction. On removals i may cut baby humboldts to bed rope in against upward creep, mainly at the opposing side of host from input pull. When not removing tree, scan for any imperfections to bed against upward creep to tilt things our way. Once again see if can catch imperfection at the opposing side from input pull as opposing side seats most massively into host of tree trunk. Both 90s to sides opposing each other are another key position for this i think.
.
As said, have gotten by on Timber, but proper is proper here because until polish things to this level, harder to see other things happen as cleanly, obscured by this 'cloud' of less 'clean' architecture. On 1 level is just an appreciation, but can lead further if follow thru; seeing next set of peaks and valleys once this one crested. Never been one for just do this way blindly cuz i say etc.; but seems not all lessons can be written or just not adequately so until done many times and then re-read to get so much more of the real intent/offering.
.
Pre-tighten rope as a bit of pre-test and seating also gives less drop impact input against system in this orchestrated symphony of support most gracefully taking a real hit.

For Timber/Killick i think should go with fig8(ABoK Lesson#1668) start of 'Long way home'(Supertramp), have at least 3 twirls and end nip at opposing side of the host than input pull. Preceding twirls as reducers of tension yes, but mostly as spacers reaching to that nip sweet spot equal and opposing to input.
 
Last edited:
I worked with a former professional rock climber and asked him to tie a bowline on something and he couldn't do it. That got me wondering if he was fabricating his rock climbing experience. Turns out the rock climbers stopped using the bowline many years ago, because they don't trust it. I was told that it's been known slip with repeated loading.

Personally, I have seen a properly tied and set bowline fail under load, when taking a big pine top. I had it on video so went back to check to see if I had toed it properly and I had. The lesson learned there is that yes indeed a bowline can slip. The Yosemite tie off is designed to prevent that, but for single load situations I just leave an extras long tail, because it's not going to slip that much on a single. A short tail and heavy load could result in failure. For added strength, I use a doubled bowline which is quick and easy. Stronger than a single and much easier to untie after heavy loading.

For tying slings I go with cow first, then if not enough rope, timber. I don't see anything wrong with the bowline providing its backed up with a Y tied off if repeat loading expected. The tail shown in your photo is plenty long to prevent slipping if loading is not going to be repeated or you could just keep an eye on it. Be aware that it can fail though. Only once in 40 years for me.
 
When I used to rock climb, I always preferred to tie in with a doubled bowline with Yosemite finish. Much easier to untie after loading than figure 8. My understanding of why a single bowline is never used in rock climbing is that it’s not secure for situations without continuous loading. When lead climbing, your tie in is mostly unloaded and thus a single bowline can work itself loose unbeknownst to the climber. As long as it remained properly tied, it would be unlikely to slip under the loads experienced in rock climbing falls.
 
i think an upgrade from 1x arc180 (as in single Bowline) to 3x arc180 (of as a Double Bowline or Half-Hitch conversion to Anchor Hitch, to each side for Girth to Prussic etc.) is an upgrade to as a pro-level performance from basic level (except where curiously noted for Blackwall/hook as 2nd in tinyurl.com/abok-chap25 Lesson#1876). i prefer making DBY by inverse/slip knot method as best way to reeve thru the Round Turn (RT)
Works like a tool to thread sewing needle. Instead of rabbit named Mohamed running thru 2 rings, around tree and work back down 2 rings, tree/mountain comes to Mohamed ! Note how tape on end flags length to thread, if any creep, id color for eye etc.
.
Around a Standing Part(SPart) 1x arc180 is as a hook pull sideways, shearing across the sole support to Load of SPart to deform to less efficient. But increase to RT of 3x arc180 around SPart and does more than shear across the support column of SPart to Load, but now can wrap around and grip some to pull more ALONG longitudinal length of rope column support than totally SHEAR ACROSS the support column. Now that is not with Bowline SPart, but the same super mechanical upgrade of single/simple Turn upgraded to RT is in DBY to make secure. RT is noted so much in everything to read between the lines as is a large turning point in the mechanics of rope architecture. 1x arc180 gives a 1D pull across SPart or in Bowline etc, 2x give a 1D GRIP along SPart etc., 3x give a 2D GRIP along SPart, more just extend the 2D architecture i think. So, 3x is the great turning point to watch i think; that science just applied here to DBY example.
.
The Yosemite tie-off feature adds security, some better symmetry; but also a fave for me as a cleaner, more open, more professionally hittable , (uncluttered by tail 'wagging' in way) target as like a spliced eye on same terminal end. Also, if always a couple of inches of tape on end, and it just barely shows out of DBY, is as a creep marker for when Bowline doesn't lend well to material. In many of my older rope pieces for dragging, tiedown and other short rope utilities; at least 1 end a big open, friendly DBY, tail even taped down to look, handle even more like a spliced eye (except not as strong). If DBY at each end, then different bright tape colors, that both contrasted with rope color to be able to ask/focus on 'yellow eye of blue' etc.
.
Rope is a material, as any other; and Bowline simply does not lend to all as well; Round-Turn/Double Bowline helping compensate. In rigids/by comparison, some artisans might say to only make certain tools in certain metal types(or wood, plastic etc.) as does not work as well in iron(element) as steel(alloy adding some carbon), even tho are both 'metals'. Rope is same way, not always that particular material build lends to Bowline best as other tools might not be best in iron but steel metals. Can even play forming Bowline in hand and rope will tell you if will lend easily or not to seat to this proposed Bowline task, as a way i test/play with a new rope in store etc. As 1 extreme, fishing line monofilament won't; it trys to tell ya so the whole time, arguing at every bend 'this jest isn't fer me' it says if eyes and fingers listen closely!
.
i think Bowline as fixed or running eye should only be used for right angle pull to host, but if by contrast lengthwise pulls on host should always and all ways get a Half Hitch pre-fix to help compensate. As like going from trusty Timber upgrade from basic Half Hitch in right angle chapter tinyurl.com/abok-chap21 to Killick in following lengthwise chapter tinyurl.com/abok-chap22 as first thing noted as a basic design warning to all that follow along. Can try RT in eye of Bowline for the 2D architecture grab, but this puts spreading apart the lock of Bowline improperly. This spread is another thing we see HH pre-fix take care of while still extruding the 2D support aspect.
 
Last edited:
Figure 8 follow through was the standard when I learned to rock climb in the early 1990s. Bowline was for sailors.
 
Figure 8 or figure 9 for me on a base tie. Have been known to use an Alpine Butterfly, but not the norm. Don't use a Bowline on a base tie. Bowline is probably one of the least knots I use in climbing or tree work. Use it on the catamaran when racing, but not climbing.
 
Tuebor said:
Figure 8 follow through was the standard when I learned to rock climb in the early 1990s. Bowline was for sailors.
Click to expand...
Bowline variations took on some users with sport climbing where many lead falls/ catches happened without untying.

I used a bowline follow-through/ re-trace.

Some used a bowline with a tie- off.
Figure 8 follow-through was always backed with a barrel knot or yosemite finish, IME.
 
Muggs said:
In a situation where you need to anchor a portawrap with a dead eye sling, it has usually been shown in the past that the only valid options are a cow hitch or a timber hitch. Years ago I made a video showing how I set it up using a running bowline instead, but I got a lot of pushback. Lots of people online said it was inappropriate to use a running bow for this. I disagreed then, and I still do. Does anyone know why a running bowline is no good in this situation? Same question for a ring as a redirect.

Breaking load of hitches and ropes used in rigging
View attachment 89806
Click to expand...

I’ve had to do it before with my last boss his sling Ms we’re always too small. So when we got into the bigger wood I had to do this. I didn’t like too but it does work just get a good choke on it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Shadowscape said:
Figure 8 or figure 9 for me on a base tie. Have been known to use an Alpine Butterfly, but not the norm. Don't use a Bowline on a base tie. Bowline is probably one of the least knots I use in climbing or tree work. Use it on the catamaran when racing, but not climbing.
Click to expand...
How are you attaching your figure 8/9 to the fixed end of rope?
 
prunetang said:
How are you attaching your figure 8/9 to the fixed end of rope?
Click to expand...
Figure 8/9 is on the end of the climb line. Steel carabiner from there to an ultra sling around the stem. That is if I don't incorporate a Petzl Rig in the system. Often use the Rig as an option for rescue. In that case the climb line goes through the Rig with a simple slip knot afterward as a stopper, but easily untied for rescue. The Rig then is steel carabinered to the ultra sling. Recently added a screamer in the system between the Rig and the ultra sling, which proved to be handy that day.

Best $25. I spent in a long time.

A few years ago, I got talked into buying a screamer. Don't ask me why I bought one as I had zero use for one, but I did. It has sat in a bag unseen for a long time. Today I finally got to climb a white pine I have been wanting to climb for about 40 years. It is in the Chippawa National...
www.treebuzz.com
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Kask Stihl NORTHEASTERN Arborists Wesspur TreeStuff.com Teufelberger Westminster X-Rigging Teufelberger
Back
Top Bottom