Rope Runner Critical Incident Report August 2020

[rbreesems]

I've been thinking about setting up like this, but haven't tried it yet. Any issues with too much fiction? How often does it cause more hassle than is practical?

Please see my response to Stumpsprouts.

 

[metaspencer]

In thinking about the possibility of device failure -- and I think it's possible for any single device to fail -- I'm considering backing up my Rope Runner Pro with one of these down below it. https://amzn.to/2MGolxh

Backs up simply make sense to me. Yes they're slower. But relying on a single device seems to have at least some degree of risk, no matter how solid the device.

 

[Njdelaney]

In thinking about the possibility of device failure -- and I think it's possible for any single device to fail -- I'm considering backing up my Rope Runner Pro with one of these down below it. https://amzn.to/2MGolxh

Backs up simply make sense to me. Yes they're slower. But relying on a single device seems to have at least some degree of risk, no matter how solid the device.

Backing up a RRP with a Petzl device is blasphemous. There's got to be another choice!

 

[climbstihl]

Backing up a RRP with a Petzl device is blasphemous. There's got to be another choice!

ISC Rocker

 

[Jehinten]

I don't have the pro, only the previous model runner. For you guys not trusting it and wanting a second device on the line, would you want to back up any other device or is this RRP specific? If specific why not choose another tool? If not, why not backup you TIP and rope as well?

I'd rather run two devices on two ropes, which I do sometimes depending on the job, than run two devices on one rope.

 

[timmysaint]

I don't have the pro, only the previous model runner. For you guys not trusting it and wanting a second device on the line, would you want to back up any other device or is this RRP specific? If specific why not choose another tool? If not, why not backup you TIP and rope as well?

I'd rather run two devices on two ropes, which I do sometimes depending on the job, than run two devices on one rope.

I'm with Jehinten. 2 ropes, 2 TIPs with 2 wrenches and I sleep well regardless of the job the next day.

 

[Tuebor]

This seems ridiculous. Either you trust the device or not. If you don't, ditch it and get something you feel comfortable with. How could you work like that, constantly looking over your shoulder? Someone is going to fuck themselves trying to jerry rig a backup for no reason.

 

[Crimsonking]

Just tie a Blake’s hitch and forget the devices if it’s all too scary. Hip thrust some 3 strand riding a 4 D saddle. Of course that requires tying a Blake’s properly.

I’m trying to hold back some crotchety tree guy attitude, but man it’s getting hard. Tree work isn't for everyone, but (I thought) these advancements make it more accessible to a broader scope.

I don’t even feel like we’re talking about accepting a level of risk anymore. Instead, we’re talking about accepting that the tools we use are generally safe when combined with proper training and inspection.

I know not everyone here is a production climber. If you are not, cool! Enjoy playing in the trees safely with whatever gadgets and combinations you like. If you are a production climber, decide whether the tools you’re using are the right tools for you. Use something that you can be productive using. For either party, casting doubt on a product that several competent climbers find useful and even enjoyable is just silly. Even those top climbers will switch devices when they aren’t quite familiar enough with one and need to focus in high intensity. I’ve shelved my RRP during a job while I was learning it because I needed to be at my best, which was with a hitch cord at the time. Was there anything wrong with the RRP? No, the deficit was in my experience.

The two rope thing- when it’s useful, great. I don’t think it needs to be pushed as an ideal. Those who have had it forced upon them are not fans, from what I’ve heard. Now, competent climbers have to risk being a “hack” if they don’t want the hassle that two lines can be in the wrong scenario. I love two ropes in the right situation, but it’s rare for me. That can be a regional issue, for sure.

 

[Stumpsprouts]

The bridge2 pic shows the set up, you can see the 2nd bridge in bottom of the pic. I consider the thimble prussic+2nd bridge as backup to descender+first bridge. I use a roll-N-lock to length adjust the first bridge, which is why it looks shorter than bridge2 -- bridge1 is shortened in this pic. The descent photo shows how I release the descender, the fingers on top of the thimble prussic causes it slide down during the descent. To be honest, I only recently switched to the RRPro from my BullDog Bone and the fact that the RRPro horn faces you instead of facing away like the BDB makes this hand positioning more uncomfortable, tougher. Was simple to do with the BDB, still getting comfortable with it for the RRPro.

On ascent, I either keep a hand on the prussic and push it up as I ascent, or I sometimes just let the descender push it up (does not always work as well as the prussic can bind sometimes). I do not find friction on either descent or ascent to be a problem.

In terms of being too much trouble, that is a personal decision. For me, I am used to it now and do not give it a second thought - been using this for at least three years. Also, I am not an arborist, only do cat rescue, so my climbing requirements may be simpler.

Thanks for sharing. I’m of two minds of this. It’s great to have this backup but also allows oneself to distrust the main device. We need to have absolute trust in the device when set up properly and inspected. Resorting to this all the time would leave me lazy about the main device- not double checking slick pins- getting careless. And ultimately these devices are designed to do what they do, and we need to accept that we cannot mitigate every risk out of this occupation.

I see this as a great way to get used to a new system, trying a new hitch, etc. I’ve been shy working with a new bridge attachment, I might throw this setup on for a week or two to develop some trust.

 

[Zacchaeus]

Just tie a Blake’s hitch and forget the devices if it’s all too scary. Hip thrust some 3 strand riding a 4 D saddle. Of course that requires tying a Blake’s properly.

I’m trying to hold back some crotchety tree guy attitude, but man it’s getting hard. Tree work isn't for everyone, but (I thought) these advancements make it more accessible to a broader scope.

I don’t even feel like we’re talking about accepting a level of risk anymore. Instead, we’re talking about accepting that the tools we use are generally safe when combined with proper training and inspection.

I know not everyone here is a production climber. If you are not, cool! Enjoy playing in the trees safely with whatever gadgets and combinations you like. If you are a production climber, decide whether the tools you’re using are the right tools for you. Use something that you can be productive using. For either party, casting doubt on a product that several competent climbers find useful and even enjoyable is just silly. Even those top climbers will switch devices when they aren’t quite familiar enough with one and need to focus in high intensity. I’ve shelved my RRP during a job while I was learning it because I needed to be at my best, which was with a hitch cord at the time. Was there anything wrong with the RRP? No, the deficit was in my experience.

The two rope thing- when it’s useful, great. I don’t think it needs to be pushed as an ideal. Those who have had it forced upon them are not fans, from what I’ve heard. Now, competent climbers have to risk being a “hack” if they don’t want the hassle that two lines can be in the wrong scenario. I love two ropes in the right

situation, but it’s rare for me. That can be a regional issue, for sure.

My friend, you and I agree very much.
NEVER had an eye-eye prusik drop me out of a tree. If anything, the descent was difficult because too much friction. I'm not big on trusting my life to all these slick, metal, mechanical "friction" devices, yet... that may change one day. I feel like lots of this stuff is sold/bought as the "super-cool, badass, i'm awesome, look how pimp I am, I got the latest/greatest" gadgets. It seems they play into climber's pride more than humility (just my opinion); maybe I'm wrong.

One thing about the RopeRunner, or ANY quick midline attached device, is this: If it's quick attach, it CAN be quick detach. Looking at the pics, those pins with the tiny barb that "keeps them in"?? That little barb is all that keeps the pin "locked in"?? No thank you; not with my ass on the line... What if limbs or twigs hit that thing and pop if in and release it? Maybe that's what happened in the tree and he didn't know it.

Normer, regardless of how it happened, thank God you're still alive. Easily could have been the worst kind of statistic. I agree with others. Forget the new and fancy stuff and use something that's tried and true to you. With ANY new stuff: low and slow... low and slow.

 

[Chaplain242]

This seems ridiculous. Either you trust the device or not. If you don't, ditch it and get something you feel comfortable with. How could you work like that, constantly looking over your shoulder? Someone is going to fuck themselves trying to jerry rig a backup for no reason.

Whilst appreciating V-rigs, M-rigs, couldn’t see myself using two complete climb systems all the time, rope management being a big factor. Unless purely ascending couldn’t see myself using a backup either (rather pointless seeing I generally ascend using lanyard as backup anyway). To me adding too many systems is just an added distraction, and as Tuebor vocalizes, will likely bring someone to grief.

if not using a lanyard as backup, can see it being used. But can also see twin system specific components an added cost and time factor that many won’t put up with.

In rappelling, the rule is never take hand off rope tail as a manual safety (even if results in a little rope burn), mitigated by autoblocks off the leg loop of the harness for rope tail safety for those that want extra safety.

perhaps the autoblock prusik would be a better option for the safety using multiscender if want backup? (Using single rope)

I already use a free small carabiner off the lower Dee or leg loop to guide the rope tail if I think I need to take hands off the device during ascent-movement without locking it off as I will know where to locate the rope tail even with eyes closed, especially with lots of loose flotsam that can get into an ascender or hitch compromising grip.

 

[Crimsonking]

One thing about the RopeRunner, or ANY quick midline attached device, is this: If it's quick attach, it CAN be quick detach. Looking at the pics, those pins with the tiny barb that "keeps them in"?? That little barb is all that keeps the pin "locked in"?? No thank you; not with my ass on the line... What if limbs or twigs hit that thing and pop if in and release it? Maybe that's what happened in the tree and he didn't know it.

This is the thinking I’m speaking against. I own one, and I’ve used it regularly. There is no way the pins can be inadvertently pushed and twisted while weighted. Heck, while unweighted it can be a lot of fiddling to get the pins disengaged so the device can be removed. The only pin that can even twist while weighted is the only pin the OP claimed was still engaged. Looking at pictures of a device is not the same as using it.

I only switched away from it on a job because I was still learning it’s feel. It’s rare for me to not use it anymore. Its benefits are amazing! MRS to SRS with no additional gear or adjustments, frictionless tending, and fewer hitch cord purchases. It likes a wide variety of ropes- 48, 32, 24, and even 16 strand. My zigzag requires a dedicated rope if i want to use it with an eye splice, since I’m not going to thread 200’ on the regular. The RRP, while not as dreamy of an attachment process as the akimbo, is still midline attachable. Keep the spring oiled, and there should be no trouble with this device.

I agree that there is a HUGE problem of people buying the latest just to have the latest. I’ve heard countless stories of companies seeing promise when a climber shows up with the new toys, only to realize he couldn’t climb a jungle gym and has no idea how to use the thousands of dollars of aluminum hanging from his high dollar, brand new saddle. Then there are the stories from friends in distribution that regularly try to talk people out of buying the big ticket devices because it’s obvious they have no clue what they’re doing even over the phone. Yes, you heard it right- distributors don’t want to sell those things to unqualified climbers. It bothers them that untrained people gravitate to devices which require advanced skill and understanding. They go to lengths to dissuade irresponsible purchases when they are able.

 

[moss]

Semi-radical statement: Norm's accident is a human factors story, not a climbing device or climbing technique story. We can say "operator error" but that's not enough. Many of you have studied "accident theory" one way or the other, either through reading publications, safety workshops, or simply thinking things through that you've seen happen or happened to you. A common thread in any kind of "industrial" accident is a person performing under external or self-imposed pressure or both. When a climber has "accepted" too much external pressure or has created (for whatever reason) internal pressure to perform they are now in a danger zone.

Cat in a tree rescues are an unfortunate sweet spot for creating the conditions that can distract a climber from keeping strong awareness of the critical elements of their climb. In work climbing for sure, "We must finish this job today" as the sun dips towards the horizon can have the same effects. In a cat rescue you're in a highly emotional situation where a cat owner desperately wants their cat back on the ground. It's natural for a normally empathetic person to take on the pet owner's urgency. Unfortunately in that moment the climber has begun the process of undermining their own safety.

Is the answer a second rope system or a back-up under your primary system? That's been answered in this thread, "No!". The answer is that the climber has to be aware of and keep "emotional transfer" from the pet owner under control and remain steady and focused as they perform the rescue.
-AJ

 

[moss]

Here's an example of whipped up external pressure to rescue a cat stuck in a tree. I got a call 11 pm during a winter storm with winds and snow. Cat in a tree in a nearby town. The caller is at the location and would like me to rescue the cat now. I tell them that cats are extremely resilient, let's talk in the morning. They call me in the morning, they're back at the location, cat is still in the tree, windy and cold but doable for me. I show up, I'd already determined that they didn't know who's cat it was. I walk through a yard and a strip of white pine dominated woods into a powerline cut on the other side. Two people are there looking into the trees from the powerline clearing. I introduce myself, turns out the two people don't know each other and don't actually live in the neighborhood. The stuck cat was reported by a homeowner on a town Facebook group. The FB group got things fired up the night before and there was high motivation coming from a group of people who didn't know each other to get the cat down. The two people reported that the cat was crying but they couldn't locate it. I scanned the trees, looking and listening for the cat. Then I heard it, the classic sound of tree parts rubbing from wind movement. I waited and listened for it again to confirm. Then told them there's no cat, it's rubbing branches. I did my due diligence and continued searching with my binoculars, more to make them feel better. End of story. This is why a climber/rescuer has to hold their center, make their own informed decisions, and be in charge of themselves as they deal with these kinds of situations.
-AJ

 

[Zacchaeus]

This is the thinking I’m speaking against. I own one, and I’ve used it regularly. There is no way the pins can be inadvertently pushed and twisted while weighted. Heck, while unweighted it can be a lot of fiddling to get the pins disengaged so the device can be removed. The only pin that can even twist while weighted is the only pin the OP claimed was still engaged. Looking at pictures of a device is not the same as using it.

Thank you for clarifying. You're correct, looking at pictures is definitely not the same as using it. I have absolutely no experience with it, and admittedly am ignorant as to the "feel" of the tool. While it may look easy to unattach to me, it may very well be difficult to unattach, as you say. You being a user, I'll take your word over my speculation. I was just looking at the pics that someone else shared earlier in the thread.