- Location
- Nashville, TN
here here!
rock hard rope?
- Thread starter Phil
- Start date
- Location
- Nashville, TN
I say if you would like to rant(anyone) then go to the Tree Free Zone
Please leave the "Threads that teach" alone
Tom, Mark, what do you think?
Lets get back to talking about Rope(or whatever)
Please leave the "Threads that teach" alone
Tom, Mark, what do you think?
Lets get back to talking about Rope(or whatever)
[ QUOTE ]
"My bone to pick with you is why you don't know about your ropes. Don't mess with them if you don't know where they have been."
this is one of my problems with you....your logic is flawed on every level....i don't know the first thing about mechanics in a car but does that mean i shouldn't drive the used car i bought because i have no idea what the last mechanic serviced it did? no...if it works i use it...when something goes wrong with it i try to find out what and get it fixed...if getting it fixed means buying a new car then so be it... at least i learned what happened and can avoid it in the future. You mentioned how many different people you have worked for/with over the years...did you have each of them buy you a brand new rigging line to use when you started because you didn't know how they were used in the past? Where ever i go i either get a brand new saddle, or use my own. Then i have them buy me a brand new climbing line. other than that...its a rigging line. It gets stressed...i saw a flaw and addressed the issue. I am happy your parents were given the proverbial book on life and were able to teach you everything about everything that you were ever going to come accross in your existence. if only we could all be so lucky. but i may as well be talking to a brick wall.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is why I am so animate about things. When I first started in this business I always found that the equipment was usually thrashed and most likely was going to stay that way. The co. owners had very nice cars. Now that I know what is right I am pissed.
Funny thing about you mentioning used cars. I have a used car dealer liscense( sold a few this month). I always make sure that the people buying them see the good and bad. They ask me "are you trying to stop me from buying this?" I hate car salesmen very much and I don't really sell many. In fact I probably won't sell anymore ever again. I don't recomend you buy a used car. If you do, go to a dealer like Carsense or a reputatable new car dealer who will stand behind the warranty you should buy. Friends don't sell friends used cars and if I were your employer I would bend over backwards to make sure everything was kosher for you while performing your job. You would be very confused and wonder who is working for who.And if you don't know the last time your car was checked out you better get it to the shop before you end up on the side of the road on your way home to your power dinner and your bed. The reason I got into car and truck repair is so I never had to be in the position you described.I couldn't really afford that either but look at me now. You can expect a mechanic to tell you anything and ,well, you have to beleive it. And while he is in there fixing something he will charge you for the stuff he broke trying to fix it and you will never know. You just pay the bill and next month when it does the same thing you will pay again. How do you like my logic now? Don't let the system beat you.
Phil I don't like your attitude... I love it. You are a fiesty $#@!er. Don't take any crap from ANYONE and that includes working with beat up ropes. A true craftsmen will seek to obtain his own tools for a number of reasons and if he ever borrows some and damages them he will replace them post haste. Can't afford to but your own? To bad, neither could I but did anyway and it paid off in the end.
Also, I might make some pretty inflamatory statements but I never made fun of anyone's name and NEVER mentioned anyone parents. I think you should stop.
"My bone to pick with you is why you don't know about your ropes. Don't mess with them if you don't know where they have been."
this is one of my problems with you....your logic is flawed on every level....i don't know the first thing about mechanics in a car but does that mean i shouldn't drive the used car i bought because i have no idea what the last mechanic serviced it did? no...if it works i use it...when something goes wrong with it i try to find out what and get it fixed...if getting it fixed means buying a new car then so be it... at least i learned what happened and can avoid it in the future. You mentioned how many different people you have worked for/with over the years...did you have each of them buy you a brand new rigging line to use when you started because you didn't know how they were used in the past? Where ever i go i either get a brand new saddle, or use my own. Then i have them buy me a brand new climbing line. other than that...its a rigging line. It gets stressed...i saw a flaw and addressed the issue. I am happy your parents were given the proverbial book on life and were able to teach you everything about everything that you were ever going to come accross in your existence. if only we could all be so lucky. but i may as well be talking to a brick wall.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is why I am so animate about things. When I first started in this business I always found that the equipment was usually thrashed and most likely was going to stay that way. The co. owners had very nice cars. Now that I know what is right I am pissed.
Funny thing about you mentioning used cars. I have a used car dealer liscense( sold a few this month). I always make sure that the people buying them see the good and bad. They ask me "are you trying to stop me from buying this?" I hate car salesmen very much and I don't really sell many. In fact I probably won't sell anymore ever again. I don't recomend you buy a used car. If you do, go to a dealer like Carsense or a reputatable new car dealer who will stand behind the warranty you should buy. Friends don't sell friends used cars and if I were your employer I would bend over backwards to make sure everything was kosher for you while performing your job. You would be very confused and wonder who is working for who.And if you don't know the last time your car was checked out you better get it to the shop before you end up on the side of the road on your way home to your power dinner and your bed. The reason I got into car and truck repair is so I never had to be in the position you described.I couldn't really afford that either but look at me now. You can expect a mechanic to tell you anything and ,well, you have to beleive it. And while he is in there fixing something he will charge you for the stuff he broke trying to fix it and you will never know. You just pay the bill and next month when it does the same thing you will pay again. How do you like my logic now? Don't let the system beat you.
Phil I don't like your attitude... I love it. You are a fiesty $#@!er. Don't take any crap from ANYONE and that includes working with beat up ropes. A true craftsmen will seek to obtain his own tools for a number of reasons and if he ever borrows some and damages them he will replace them post haste. Can't afford to but your own? To bad, neither could I but did anyway and it paid off in the end.
Also, I might make some pretty inflamatory statements but I never made fun of anyone's name and NEVER mentioned anyone parents. I think you should stop.
Phil
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Oak Lawn, IL
can you really break it with quantifiable results? I am assuming yes but i just want to make sure. If you pm me your info i will try to mail you the rope.
- Location
- healdsburg, CA
[ QUOTE ]
So as i was coiling up our 1/2" 16 strand rigging rope i noticed that a 4-5" section of it was rock hard and unable to be bent easily. I was wondering if anyone else has had this happen and what causes it. Does it reduce stregnth in the rope? I thought it might be from pine sap but there is no external evidence...the rope looks normal. I am going to replace the rope anyway and cut that section out but i was trying to figure out what was going on.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good question!
I am stumped.
You said the rope shows no sign of sap, no signs of glazing, no signs of abrasion.
hummm, I would say off hand that maybe their IS sap or glazing, but the rope had this outer layer of gunk/burned glazed rope rubbed off by use after the fact.
I have alot of ropes with sap embedded in them. But I know EXACTLY what they have been through. So I know and trust each ones strength and life span.
Either way, the rope is suspect. Off hand without seeing it, I would say regulate it to being a tie-down rope, rope rug, or tag line.
It is very hard to make a recommendation because all our ropes are used in such serious ways. Only you can really be the judge of it's strength.
You said you where going to "cut out the section". You might want to leave it in there if you are going to retire it from loading and climbing use.
Just make sure it is only used for tie-downs and tag lines. Or lowering when it does'nt matter if the branch or log smacks the ground.
After all it might be instructional to see your rope break. (as long as it breaks in a controlled situation)
It would be a shame to lose the entire length if you need it.
So as i was coiling up our 1/2" 16 strand rigging rope i noticed that a 4-5" section of it was rock hard and unable to be bent easily. I was wondering if anyone else has had this happen and what causes it. Does it reduce stregnth in the rope? I thought it might be from pine sap but there is no external evidence...the rope looks normal. I am going to replace the rope anyway and cut that section out but i was trying to figure out what was going on.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good question!
I am stumped.
You said the rope shows no sign of sap, no signs of glazing, no signs of abrasion.
hummm, I would say off hand that maybe their IS sap or glazing, but the rope had this outer layer of gunk/burned glazed rope rubbed off by use after the fact.
I have alot of ropes with sap embedded in them. But I know EXACTLY what they have been through. So I know and trust each ones strength and life span.
Either way, the rope is suspect. Off hand without seeing it, I would say regulate it to being a tie-down rope, rope rug, or tag line.
It is very hard to make a recommendation because all our ropes are used in such serious ways. Only you can really be the judge of it's strength.
You said you where going to "cut out the section". You might want to leave it in there if you are going to retire it from loading and climbing use.
Just make sure it is only used for tie-downs and tag lines. Or lowering when it does'nt matter if the branch or log smacks the ground.
After all it might be instructional to see your rope break. (as long as it breaks in a controlled situation)
It would be a shame to lose the entire length if you need it.
- Location
- Phoenix Arizona
me too...then we could turn you off
Phil
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Oak Lawn, IL
i actually bought the new rigging line with my own money for now because i know if i go to my boss it will be a hard sell to get the new rope and when he finally caves under my assualt it will be 4 weeks...not lieing...before i get it. i've had to go through all this before with pulleys for redirecting rigging lines and double sheaves for mechanical advantage. I no longer talk to him other than work related issues for that particular day. And i know as a true craftsman that the 100 bucks of my own money i am spending is nothing compared to me providing myself and my crew with a safe work environment and kosher equipment regardless of its my company or not. the second i step onto a clients property i consider it my job and my crew and my client...
as far as your previous bosses having nice cars...try this...my boss has a f*&^ing sail boat on top of his nice car. and i don't care about that...i care about how he got it. by using smoke and mirrors and operating illegaly. He would have guys that had no drivers license and spoke no english drive cdl trucks (this is before my buddy and i got here). he had minimal equipment and had illegals working for him..and still does. but that doesn't make me angry at the industry...it makes me angry at him as a person. I don't consider him an arborist anymore than i do the bag of trash in my kitchen which coveniently is also how i see him and he knows it.
so you are your own mechanic...are you going to go to med school so you can be your own doctor so you can save money and know you are not getting sold extra meds or needless tests. or are you going to go to school to become a coputer engineer so you can save money by fixing your computer yourself because you have to clean out all the cr$p you stuffed through it. or are you going to transcend through all that formal education and just cast your holy powers to do it yourself? in the ideal world we would all be so self sufficient, but alas...some of us were just not born with the ability to comprehend all that is around us.
I am happy your daycare/school teachers were given the proverbial book on life and were able to teach you everything about everything that you were ever going to come accross in your existence. if only we could all be so lucky.
as far as your previous bosses having nice cars...try this...my boss has a f*&^ing sail boat on top of his nice car. and i don't care about that...i care about how he got it. by using smoke and mirrors and operating illegaly. He would have guys that had no drivers license and spoke no english drive cdl trucks (this is before my buddy and i got here). he had minimal equipment and had illegals working for him..and still does. but that doesn't make me angry at the industry...it makes me angry at him as a person. I don't consider him an arborist anymore than i do the bag of trash in my kitchen which coveniently is also how i see him and he knows it.
so you are your own mechanic...are you going to go to med school so you can be your own doctor so you can save money and know you are not getting sold extra meds or needless tests. or are you going to go to school to become a coputer engineer so you can save money by fixing your computer yourself because you have to clean out all the cr$p you stuffed through it. or are you going to transcend through all that formal education and just cast your holy powers to do it yourself? in the ideal world we would all be so self sufficient, but alas...some of us were just not born with the ability to comprehend all that is around us.
I am happy your daycare/school teachers were given the proverbial book on life and were able to teach you everything about everything that you were ever going to come accross in your existence. if only we could all be so lucky.
- Location
- healdsburg, CA
[ QUOTE ]
can you really break it with quantifiable results? I am assuming yes but i just want to make sure. If you pm me your info i will try to mail you the rope.
[/ QUOTE ]
Using a dynometer, you can measure peak loads, but I dont know if that is exactly how the rope manufacturers test the breaking strength. They may need a paticular length of rope in order to affix it to the machine.
If you are willing to spend some money on this issue, I would contact say New England ropes (see TB advert to right of screen).
Other wise I would send it to someone with a dynometer and let them play with it to distruction.
can you really break it with quantifiable results? I am assuming yes but i just want to make sure. If you pm me your info i will try to mail you the rope.
[/ QUOTE ]
Using a dynometer, you can measure peak loads, but I dont know if that is exactly how the rope manufacturers test the breaking strength. They may need a paticular length of rope in order to affix it to the machine.
If you are willing to spend some money on this issue, I would contact say New England ropes (see TB advert to right of screen).
Other wise I would send it to someone with a dynometer and let them play with it to distruction.
EEEWW! you are fiesty, good for you. For what it is worth
you have earned my respect even if it is one sided.
After reading your paragraph that described your employer and your situation my chest got heavy and my eyes began to swell. I am very emotional.
You seem to take a lot of intrest in what you do and also it seems like you want to be very good at it. Keep in mind it is up to you to make sure you don't wind up like your boss. I think it is the job of THE POWERS THAT BE here at treebuzz.com to make sure you don't wind up dead.
Tobe, Tom, Mark; I hope you are listening, you don't want another me. Do you? This kid needs a respectable job. Sounds like he has the right attitude.
Yes I do alot of things myself. Soon I will be printing my own money! I don't like the way the government does it.
you have earned my respect even if it is one sided.
After reading your paragraph that described your employer and your situation my chest got heavy and my eyes began to swell. I am very emotional.
You seem to take a lot of intrest in what you do and also it seems like you want to be very good at it. Keep in mind it is up to you to make sure you don't wind up like your boss. I think it is the job of THE POWERS THAT BE here at treebuzz.com to make sure you don't wind up dead.
Tobe, Tom, Mark; I hope you are listening, you don't want another me. Do you? This kid needs a respectable job. Sounds like he has the right attitude.
Yes I do alot of things myself. Soon I will be printing my own money! I don't like the way the government does it.
- Location
- Longmont, CO
It sounds like you put the rope to good use!
That's why it is hard.
Oh wait...
For the record...
I am a Certified Arborist.
Oh wait...
For the record...
TheTreeSpyder
Branched out member
- Location
- Florida>>> USA
i think we need to get escape from the 'macho' idea that just static tensile is the only rope rating. i think that 'female' forgiveness of elasticity quantity should be considered more; as a more elusive quantity to measure and keep; especially with our chances of dynamic loading.
i think this quantity is the first to be violated; lost through cycles of use, etc. Ropes should be downgraded in several tiers IMLHO. The most dynamic loading, only trusted to the freshest lines. Then, more static loading lines as another tier of wear; dribbling down to tiedown and dragging lines.
That said i try not to dynamically load lines; and if so give pretty of length of 'rubber band' to this absorption quantity. Also, this quantity can be very powerful aid in the pre-loading of the rope as ballast to the loading. i downgrade climbing lines to rigging; figuring the dynamic loading of body weight is more care-fully done; and at lighter duty(at lest for mys'elf). So, this is a constant topic with me.
i didn't say so before; as i took it to be mutely self-evident; but totally agree the section of rope should be cut off; for several feet to each side. One advantage of having your own gear; is knowing the history of the lines etc.
That part said; i also think; that if you need to give more weight to your words by abusing other peoples; then your words have less, not more relevance & readability to me person-ally. Also, such habits make the topics cloudier and not clearer; especially when they form a definitive pattern of distraction and distaste.
i think this quantity is the first to be violated; lost through cycles of use, etc. Ropes should be downgraded in several tiers IMLHO. The most dynamic loading, only trusted to the freshest lines. Then, more static loading lines as another tier of wear; dribbling down to tiedown and dragging lines.
That said i try not to dynamically load lines; and if so give pretty of length of 'rubber band' to this absorption quantity. Also, this quantity can be very powerful aid in the pre-loading of the rope as ballast to the loading. i downgrade climbing lines to rigging; figuring the dynamic loading of body weight is more care-fully done; and at lighter duty(at lest for mys'elf). So, this is a constant topic with me.
i didn't say so before; as i took it to be mutely self-evident; but totally agree the section of rope should be cut off; for several feet to each side. One advantage of having your own gear; is knowing the history of the lines etc.
That part said; i also think; that if you need to give more weight to your words by abusing other peoples; then your words have less, not more relevance & readability to me person-ally. Also, such habits make the topics cloudier and not clearer; especially when they form a definitive pattern of distraction and distaste.
- Location
- healdsburg, CA
[ QUOTE ]
i think we need to get escape from the 'macho' idea that just static tensile is the only rope rating. i think that 'female' forgiveness of elasticity quantity should be considered more; as a more elusive quantity to measure and keep; especially with our chances of dynamic loading.
[/ QUOTE ]
Spyder, I have learned that a climbing rope for Arborists is 'semi-dynamic', while a rock climbing rope is 'dynamic'.
I wonder at the degree of the two and how it is calculated. It seems almost an art form. Or prehaps it is a truly quantifiable degree?
i think we need to get escape from the 'macho' idea that just static tensile is the only rope rating. i think that 'female' forgiveness of elasticity quantity should be considered more; as a more elusive quantity to measure and keep; especially with our chances of dynamic loading.
[/ QUOTE ]
Spyder, I have learned that a climbing rope for Arborists is 'semi-dynamic', while a rock climbing rope is 'dynamic'.
I wonder at the degree of the two and how it is calculated. It seems almost an art form. Or prehaps it is a truly quantifiable degree?
TheTreeSpyder
Branched out member
- Location
- Florida>>> USA
Well; i think it is less elastic specifically to our bodyweight loading. Then even more so as we double it in DdRT; by virtue of each leg of support carrying only half bodyweight; thereby less elastic than full bodyweight on SRT. Then factor some more dampening in for slip of the hitch we ride; and also i'd think that a triple anchor to self/noose/fisherperson's etc. terminations would contribute some fergiveness. Wood supports; especially leveraged ones would add some give too..
Manufacturers and the Rigging Calculator give elastic response/dampening as a percentage of the rope's tensile to the loading X length of line in system from brake to load once; not counting multiple leg lengths. Multiple support legs reduce the loading per leg, thereby the elasticity.
But, to drop and catch of rigging loads; the elasticity more to rock climbing standards?? And this is where it's loading is more typically single and longer line; each giving more elastic response. Note, if we go to a 2:1 rig to catch load; there is less support loading statically (dropping from 2:1 to 1.5:1); but there is more support loading in a lot of dynamic situations; for the same reason as the DdRT example. At peak loading in these events there is less 'rubber band' length at catch than as it is being lowered. On spread/not single 2:1 supports; there would seem to be less loading per; but then at catch/peak loading the line is most perpendicular to the loading forces; and with shortest legs of rubber band length to absorb.
Some of the Rigging Calculator info is at the top of this archive page. specifically concerning variables in elasticity/dynamic force dampening.
Manufacturers and the Rigging Calculator give elastic response/dampening as a percentage of the rope's tensile to the loading X length of line in system from brake to load once; not counting multiple leg lengths. Multiple support legs reduce the loading per leg, thereby the elasticity.
But, to drop and catch of rigging loads; the elasticity more to rock climbing standards?? And this is where it's loading is more typically single and longer line; each giving more elastic response. Note, if we go to a 2:1 rig to catch load; there is less support loading statically (dropping from 2:1 to 1.5:1); but there is more support loading in a lot of dynamic situations; for the same reason as the DdRT example. At peak loading in these events there is less 'rubber band' length at catch than as it is being lowered. On spread/not single 2:1 supports; there would seem to be less loading per; but then at catch/peak loading the line is most perpendicular to the loading forces; and with shortest legs of rubber band length to absorb.
Some of the Rigging Calculator info is at the top of this archive page. specifically concerning variables in elasticity/dynamic force dampening.
- Location
- Asheville,NC
break the rope on a test machine......be done with this bs.
Norm_Hall
New member
- Location
- Wauconda, (Chicago),IL,USA
Phil, if you don't know what the stiff part is from, why not send it to the manufacturer with an explaination of how you found it. Call them 1st to get some feedback. Any chance of a pic? I would definitely retire the rope.
Phil
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Oak Lawn, IL
i will get a pic tommorrow. I just got the new line today so i can liberate the damaged one from the company. I think i'm gonna get it break tested...my curiosity has to be quenched.
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