Removal technique suggestions?

98% of the J-lags we use is 5/8" as well.

We do keep small quantity of 1/2" in stock too, because sometimes on small trees, you don't have big diameter limbs and 5/8" just seems very wrong to put a hole through that much cambium.

We only put j-lags in deciduous trees. I think ANSI might say that anyway. Conifers are a big no-no.

Also, in our own rules, we don't use J-lags in brittle woods anymore either, like Lihriodendron, aspen, paulownia, etc. We never had one pull out in those, but they are about as weak as many softwoods, so we stopped years ago.

I was guilty when I was young of installing 1/2" j-lags in big diameters; I didn't know any better. They still never failed, but when I finally read ANSI in my 20's I was shocked.

We follow ANSI and best practices very close. But there are situations that are unique and you have to create the best system you can think up.
 
Wow. Awesome chart. Thanks for the reference mangoes, and norm for the post. Looks like pull outs are largely due to over sized pilot holes and straighten outs are largely due to small j lag size.
If you tried to pull a through hardware out I'm assuming the cable would break first. And also if a through is just as easy to install then why not? Invasive? One thing I've yet to see is a tree hurt by this. It's less than the size of a pruning cut and the exposure is capped in a sense. Am I missing something. I'm not trying to put down j lags , I just still think through is better. I suppose a j lag system with hand spliced 7 strand is the best looking of them all. Just beware the softwoods and soft hardwoods.
 
Bartlett did a study on this and it's written up in the ISA journal highly recommended
it shows that through cabling using terminal fasteners is very effective
Here's a picture of the locus that I cabled five years ago with this method

minimal wounding absolutely no widening of the hole cheap quick long-lasting

As Norm pointed out the table is full of overkill and also has gaps
It does not mention three eights inch which is the size I use on larger jobs also now I'm using aircraft cable and swages as covered in that Bartlett research for smaller jobs Bradford pears and the such
A whole lot cheaper and plenty strong enough
 
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For bardfords , I've been using a retired piece of 1/2" line, loop the whole top with a little give... its very effective and MUCH cheaper than cable.. Material is basically free, when you beat up ropes for a living... Never seen one fail yet.. Free your mind!
 
Danie l that method can do the job, but can result in a good bit of abrasion after windstorms. Not a big issue with little trees, and can be mitigated with duct tape or....

Not really classic arboriculture but it does the job.

I didn't know my mind was jailed. :pirata:
 
Redtree said:
Thanks xman I needed that.
I hear what you are saying about rambling. I'll try keep posts shorter or at least more thought out. I do have strong beliefs. I also question them often and change them. Does any one else recognize something their believing might be somewhat wrong? In my posts I'm trying to talk about the huge grey area in between black and white and it takes a lot of words. Ok yes I'm odd.
For instance, cabling grey areas.
First of all thanks guy for that terminal fastener cable info I'm ordering some asap. What's the brand? What can I expect to charge?
It takes balls to say I install seatbelt. So let me defend myself because I would expect you all think I'm crazy. I still install steel and have done around 1200 feet and 400 feet cobra.
The seat belt is a different tool. If there isn't a target or if the tree is still small then often a cable is too expensive and no support goes in, then the tree might fail. I believe this is incredibly relavent in targetless multi stem trees where a cable system would be over $1000 and likely won't be sellable without a target. I can still do the strap for $120 as long as I'm pruning as well.
So to relate it to the thread, you could use seatbelt instead of old climbing line for the leash. Compliment with reduction.
The drug caffeine was not used for this post, I'm trying to quit. Seriously. Thanks xman for the support and I edited out some rambling
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Seatbelt is just flat webbing strap so it doesn't sound that crazy. A couple questions though.
Do you have any photos?
Do you stitch them together yourself ?
Do you install as a basket to a straight length or how does that work?
 
Redtree said:
First of all remember it is not a permanent fix or even an alternative to steel cable. The only reason I use seatbelt is because I found rolls for a low price. The real point here is that any kind of strap is wide and gentler on the bark. Should be a strong strap. 2000 to 15000 lbs. depending. If you have old climbing line then you could use a loop of strap around each stem at a crotch. Then tie these together. Just leave a lot of room for growth.
Again the strap doesn't replace the job of cable it is simply better than nothing. As for monitoring, I agree with Guy. Not a whole lot of need in the average tree with cable. Unless however decay is significant more than structure. As for strap the tree and strap should be monitored. The trees I strap are ongoing projects. The trees I cable are often not. Or at least longer term.
Who checks their cables or Cobras 40 years later? Up to the new homeowner at that point? We need an iCloud app so we arborists can input any cable installed. Good business for the next generation too. Just another rambling brainstorm
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How would you get a cloud like that to work? I'm really trying to get this better implemented just in my company with our clients.
How would you get tree companies to more or less give up a fraction of there client list? I agree seeing a trees history would be very cool, and I know it's helpful on trees that I've revisited in my own work.
So great idea but how would you make it work? Is there any arb software that does this? What would the variance be with so many different people inputing data it would have to be a form or checklist to fill out?
 
I think it could be set up with permissions for access to the information. Possibly this could be something developed in conjunction with TCIA or ISA.
 
Just put it in the dirt bro. if there is a grade sloping into the cabin use a block and negative rig. do not use your climb line as a second lanyard. install an adjustable friction saver and rap to each cut. so much easier. make your notch with the climb line high. set your rigging with the climb line high. Pull climb line before you back cut. tell the ground man to let it runnnnnnn............... If the tree is supporting the crown then as you take more weight off the more the tree can support. unless your have serious root issues and the balance of the crown is keeping the tree up right......
 
treehumper said:
I think it could be set up with permissions for access to the information. Possibly this could be something developed in conjunction with TCIA or ISA.
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Again I like the idea behind it but keeping those records accurate and up to date the onus would really be on each and every company. You may have better luck forming a good, friendly working relationship with all the other companies in your area and just asking them each time.

But that kind of data for each area could help with sales etc as well I know a lot of people call asking about cables, etc right after a big wind event. But I guess that's already a common assumption. Hmm.

Are 100% of the tree companies in your era certified with isa or tcia. It could be a tool to boost membership but I really don't know. As well than other 'cheaper' companies could watch the clock on those lists and poach clients. As well you'd likely need consent to put peoples info out there on line. I think in house is about the best we can do for now. But implementing a regular routine program and schedule is a great plan.
 
I always tell the customer after installation that the cables or cobra style system will need to be checked and if needed - adjusted on inspection and give them a two year time frame.
I never cold call them after that time frame just feels like drumming up work to my mind by cold calling them to remind that the period has passed - it is their call whether they wish to spend the money on maintaining the system just like any other costs involving the tree's life span.
 
I'd make the call. Sure it's about drumming up business, everything you do is about drumming up business unless your clients plead for you to come and just throw money at you:sorprendido3:. You can say the same thing about telling them to have it inspected and adjusted over the first 2 yrs. Out of sight, out of mind. No less than your dentist or doctor's office sending you a reminder of an annual check up or flu shot or any other such thing. We get it from our car dealer. They're the experts and if they want my business then letting me know what regular maintenance is needed and that it's due is smart. If you tell them in the first place and they for some reason don't call, a friendly reminder of the 2 yr anniversary is a good way to reinforce the recommendation.
 
Stihlmadd said:
I always tell the customer after installation that the cables or cobra style system will need to be checked and if needed - adjusted on inspection and give them a two year time frame.
I never cold call them after that time frame just feels like drumming up work to my mind by cold calling them to remind that the period has passed - it is their call whether they wish to spend the money on maintaining the system just like any other costs involving the tree's life span.
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You tell the people after installation that it needs routine maintenance? Cobra unlike steel has a life span do you not advise on this before instead of after?
 
sorry KevinS my bad I remind the customer after installation of what the person who quoted the job hopefully has told the customer before the point of sale - joy of being the contract climber first to go and last to know!.
 
ohhh you made me groan out loud with that little treat treehumper, very nice..
no bigger problem is I like the dynamic systems like cobra but due to the yearly shedding of the outer bark from euc's each year and depending on the species it can be at any time of the year, the bark shed builds up in and on the cobra particularly inside the restraint collar allowing for pest and disease issues to be presented with a neat home.
so if the HO doesn't get a semi regular inspection there is a greater chance of loosing the tree in the longer term.
and it is a good feeling to see how the "patient" is faring since the last climb always look forward to that bit.
 
Stihlmadd said:
ohhh you made me groan out loud with that little treat treehumper, very nice..
no bigger problem is I like the dynamic systems like cobra but due to the yearly shedding of the outer bark from euc's each year and depending on the species it can be at any time of the year, the bark shed builds up in and on the cobra particularly inside the restraint collar allowing for pest and disease issues to be presented with a neat home.
so if the HO doesn't get a semi regular inspection there is a greater chance of loosing the tree in the longer term.
and it is a good feeling to see how the "patient" is faring since the last climb always look forward to that bit.
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Do you ever use 'tree save' or any other dynamic systems but with invasive hardware to kind of meet in the middle?
 
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