I'd like some feedback. The question is: At what point do you teminate an employee for property damage? In other words..... if a guy continues to damage property and does not understand (or respect) the fact that property damage is unacceptable, how many times do you let it slide? Once? Twice? Where is the limit? I understand that property damage is a common problem in our industry due to the nature of work, and I do give them at least one chance, but I am beginning to wonder if I should start terminating these guys (the regular offenders) on the second time. I have been known in the past to let the second occasion slide, but am really getting sick and tired of the same old amateur mistakes. What do you all think?
Property Damage
- Thread starter senones
- Start date
rfwoodvt
New member
- Location
- This side of eternity.
In this particular case documentation will be important.
This documentation should include when the warning was issued, was it verbal or written, what are the consequences and what plan, if any, will there be to help the offender mend his ways.
You can give a verbal warning followed by a written warning then dismissal. Or you could go verbal then dismissal. Or written then dismissal. The more complete the doc trail the better prepared you will be for a wrongful discharge.
You also want to be careful because by allowing it to continue unabated you are developing a culture of acceptance of such behavior. That can count against you should you have an upset ex-employee.
More importantly though you might want to find the answer to why they are damaging property in the first place.
Are they simply careless? Or could they care less? Is it the same kind of damage every time or do they find new ways of breaking things?
I've got a climber that I just can't let work over fences. Just like the golfer that always hits a pond no matter how much they don't want to, this climber seems to zero in on the fences.
He doesn't want to, he doesn't try to, but it seems the more he attempts to not do it, the more accurate his devastation is.
Maybe there is a brain-block there that makes them do the stupid dance. We all have something like that that we must guard against.
Anyhoo, how long do you let it go on? Well, how much in repairs are you willing to pay for? Are you willing to see someone injured or killed before you send the offender packing.
Try being proactive...send out a memo to everyone and include it in their employee files. Let them know that such behaviour cant' continue and if it does then its time for a-packing.
It is your business, your future and your reputation at stake and should defend it with everything you have.
Anyhoo... just my two cents...
(excuse me for a moment, I need to get the soap that fell out of the box I've been standing on
)
This documentation should include when the warning was issued, was it verbal or written, what are the consequences and what plan, if any, will there be to help the offender mend his ways.
You can give a verbal warning followed by a written warning then dismissal. Or you could go verbal then dismissal. Or written then dismissal. The more complete the doc trail the better prepared you will be for a wrongful discharge.
You also want to be careful because by allowing it to continue unabated you are developing a culture of acceptance of such behavior. That can count against you should you have an upset ex-employee.
More importantly though you might want to find the answer to why they are damaging property in the first place.
Are they simply careless? Or could they care less? Is it the same kind of damage every time or do they find new ways of breaking things?
I've got a climber that I just can't let work over fences. Just like the golfer that always hits a pond no matter how much they don't want to, this climber seems to zero in on the fences.
He doesn't want to, he doesn't try to, but it seems the more he attempts to not do it, the more accurate his devastation is.
Maybe there is a brain-block there that makes them do the stupid dance. We all have something like that that we must guard against.
Anyhoo, how long do you let it go on? Well, how much in repairs are you willing to pay for? Are you willing to see someone injured or killed before you send the offender packing.
Try being proactive...send out a memo to everyone and include it in their employee files. Let them know that such behaviour cant' continue and if it does then its time for a-packing.
It is your business, your future and your reputation at stake and should defend it with everything you have.
Anyhoo... just my two cents...
(excuse me for a moment, I need to get the soap that fell out of the box I've been standing on
- Location
- North of Boston
what kind of damage? sheds/houses/fences? or shrubs/grass/ruts from tires?
documentation is key!
documentation is key!
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
Let the climbers know that the damage they do comes out of their pay.
- Location
- Louisville, KY
[ QUOTE ]
Let the climbers know that the damage they do comes out of their pay.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry- no way. An employee does does not bear the same risks (or benefits) as the owner. Property damage is ultimately the responsibility of the business owner (and should not come out of the employees pay). This can be difficult to swallow sometimes, but is a good and bitter pill. If you are not satisfied with the employee, cite or fire that employee instead.
Let the climbers know that the damage they do comes out of their pay.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry- no way. An employee does does not bear the same risks (or benefits) as the owner. Property damage is ultimately the responsibility of the business owner (and should not come out of the employees pay). This can be difficult to swallow sometimes, but is a good and bitter pill. If you are not satisfied with the employee, cite or fire that employee instead.
easyphloem
Branched out member
- Location
- Louisville, KY
If I worked for Limbwalkers, I would totally refrain from damaging client's property.
But for now, I do my best to lawn job our best clients. Problem is the Prius gets stuck too easily, making a clean getaway nearly impossible.
SZ
But for now, I do my best to lawn job our best clients. Problem is the Prius gets stuck too easily, making a clean getaway nearly impossible.
SZ
easyphloem
Branched out member
- Location
- Louisville, KY
[ QUOTE ]
I'd like some feedback.
[/ QUOTE ]
But back to the topic:
If you feel like your employee is willfully disregarding your clients' property, and makes the same mistakes resulting in a need for repair, the writing should be on the wall.
It's hard to find good help.
SZ
I'd like some feedback.
[/ QUOTE ]
But back to the topic:
If you feel like your employee is willfully disregarding your clients' property, and makes the same mistakes resulting in a need for repair, the writing should be on the wall.
It's hard to find good help.
SZ
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
[ QUOTE ]
Sorry- no way. An employee does does not bear the same risks (or benefits) as the owner. Property damage is ultimately the responsibility of the business owner (and should not come out of the employees pay). This can be difficult to swallow sometimes, but is a good and bitter pill. If you are not satisfied with the employee, cite or fire that employee instead.
[/ QUOTE ]
Way....and no need to be sorry. It works for me. Constant damage and the employee is out the door anyway and the conversation shows them the open door.
Sorry- no way. An employee does does not bear the same risks (or benefits) as the owner. Property damage is ultimately the responsibility of the business owner (and should not come out of the employees pay). This can be difficult to swallow sometimes, but is a good and bitter pill. If you are not satisfied with the employee, cite or fire that employee instead.
[/ QUOTE ]
Way....and no need to be sorry. It works for me. Constant damage and the employee is out the door anyway and the conversation shows them the open door.
- Location
- Haddonfield, nj
[ QUOTE ]
I do give them at least one chance, but I am beginning to wonder if I should start terminating these guys (the regular offenders) on the second time
[/ QUOTE ]
how do you regularly break something when it's only the second time?
I do give them at least one chance, but I am beginning to wonder if I should start terminating these guys (the regular offenders) on the second time
[/ QUOTE ]
how do you regularly break something when it's only the second time?
- Location
- Louisville, KY
[ QUOTE ]
If I worked for Limbwalkers, I would totally refrain from damaging client's property.
But for now, I do my best to lawn job our best clients. Problem is the Prius gets stuck too easily, making a clean getaway nearly impossible.
SZ
[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, the pickup-ness of the Prius is somewhat lacking.
If I worked for Limbwalkers, I would totally refrain from damaging client's property.
But for now, I do my best to lawn job our best clients. Problem is the Prius gets stuck too easily, making a clean getaway nearly impossible.
SZ
[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, the pickup-ness of the Prius is somewhat lacking.
- Location
- Louisville, KY
[ QUOTE ]
Way....and no need to be sorry. It works for me. Constant damage and the employee is out the door anyway and the conversation shows them the open door.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you seriously saying that all damage is paid by the employees, or that you make the employees pay for what you consider "excessive" damage?
My logic goes like this:
If they are full-employees who are past their probationary period, then they must be employees who are somewhat trained and responsible; ie good employees. If not, why did they make it past their probationary period?
If they are good employees, then the property damage was an accident and a learning experience. Making a good employee pay for the property damage would seem to make a good employee a bitter employee. Maybe fixing it on their own time would be a better route.
TreeCo, if I worked for you and you tried to withhold $50 for a broken sideview mirror (for example), I would leave immediately. But not before costing you $100 somewhere else where you wouldn't find it.
The trick is to develop mutual trust between the employer and employee. Systems like the one you propose have the potential to erode that trust.
Way....and no need to be sorry. It works for me. Constant damage and the employee is out the door anyway and the conversation shows them the open door.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you seriously saying that all damage is paid by the employees, or that you make the employees pay for what you consider "excessive" damage?
My logic goes like this:
If they are full-employees who are past their probationary period, then they must be employees who are somewhat trained and responsible; ie good employees. If not, why did they make it past their probationary period?
If they are good employees, then the property damage was an accident and a learning experience. Making a good employee pay for the property damage would seem to make a good employee a bitter employee. Maybe fixing it on their own time would be a better route.
TreeCo, if I worked for you and you tried to withhold $50 for a broken sideview mirror (for example), I would leave immediately. But not before costing you $100 somewhere else where you wouldn't find it.
The trick is to develop mutual trust between the employer and employee. Systems like the one you propose have the potential to erode that trust.
- Location
- Longmont, CO
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do give them at least one chance, but I am beginning to wonder if I should start terminating these guys (the regular offenders) on the second time
[/ QUOTE ]
how do you regularly break something when it's only the second time?
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe he is referring to his new policy, he's going to make, in the context of property damage.
I think that is what he means... I think...
[ QUOTE ]
I do give them at least one chance, but I am beginning to wonder if I should start terminating these guys (the regular offenders) on the second time
[/ QUOTE ]
how do you regularly break something when it's only the second time?
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe he is referring to his new policy, he's going to make, in the context of property damage.
I think that is what he means... I think...
- Location
- Atlanta Ga.
Some people are harder than others to teach lessons such as the loss and the circumstances that go along with the loss. Some people are careful naturally and others need a little more help understanding that we as a company all eat from the same bowl and negligence from one individual on a regular basis should not be spread out for the whole crew to pay for.
I have found the best way to test a person’s loyalty as well as their interest in wanting to stay with the company is to charge them for the damages and losses they are responsible for. Very few, in fact I can’t remember having one, quit over it as I do assume the first couple myself and explain the future consequences thoroughly.
It has been said by one person here on the board that if they were charged $50 bucks for breaking something they would take with them $100 before they left……well……Karma is real my friend so take all you want…..it will not only cost you more down the road but will be a multitude of blessings to me. By the said employee quitting I have already received my first blessing.
You break it once I’ll explain the section of our handbook where it explains the consequences of such. You break it twice you bought it and all the expenses to repair the damage.
I have found the best way to test a person’s loyalty as well as their interest in wanting to stay with the company is to charge them for the damages and losses they are responsible for. Very few, in fact I can’t remember having one, quit over it as I do assume the first couple myself and explain the future consequences thoroughly.
It has been said by one person here on the board that if they were charged $50 bucks for breaking something they would take with them $100 before they left……well……Karma is real my friend so take all you want…..it will not only cost you more down the road but will be a multitude of blessings to me. By the said employee quitting I have already received my first blessing.
You break it once I’ll explain the section of our handbook where it explains the consequences of such. You break it twice you bought it and all the expenses to repair the damage.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
I suggest explaining to them what you would have like to see differently.
Ask them to write down all the costs, financial and otherwise to the company for that mistake, and try to estimate costs, financial and otherwise, that go with the damage.
Some of this example would be able to be done by employee, with some of the parts followed up with by employer.
For example,
$100 for broken window, which could mean $1000 of revenue to cover expenses.
$100 for wages for cleaning up broken glass and covering window in the meanwhile.
Possibly having to drive the entire crew out/ back another day because of delays. Crew having to set up/ break down another day because of delays.
Potential for someone to cut themselves during clean-up.
Crew thrown out of rhythm by property damage.
Homeowner loss of confidence.
Loss of referral to other work by HO. Negative impression by witnessing ne
Time to follow up on repair.
Homeowner inconvenienced.
Homeowner loss of heat/ ac during accident and repair.
Howeowner's security system/ ability to lock down house is unavailable.
Homeowner has to be home for window repair company to come.
Employee/ employer having to drive out to repair damage.
Admin. costs for paying out on invoice for repair.
I suppose that in part my point is to illustrate the cascade effect from a F*&^-up.
Roping a questionable limb could have prevented this. Setting up plywood to protect a window could have prevented this. Taking a smaller piece could have prevented this.
Seems like the threat of having to pay for things may be better than the implementation of it. I worked for a window washing company that had one "get out of jail card" per year, after that the employee paid for the repair. Made people careful, but not on eggshells. As was stated, people don't always accept responsibility for their mistakes, and may make the employer "pay for it" in other ways, whether intentional (stealing) or unintentially (bringing down morale/ productivity).
Ask them to write down all the costs, financial and otherwise to the company for that mistake, and try to estimate costs, financial and otherwise, that go with the damage.
Some of this example would be able to be done by employee, with some of the parts followed up with by employer.
For example,
$100 for broken window, which could mean $1000 of revenue to cover expenses.
$100 for wages for cleaning up broken glass and covering window in the meanwhile.
Possibly having to drive the entire crew out/ back another day because of delays. Crew having to set up/ break down another day because of delays.
Potential for someone to cut themselves during clean-up.
Crew thrown out of rhythm by property damage.
Homeowner loss of confidence.
Loss of referral to other work by HO. Negative impression by witnessing ne
Time to follow up on repair.
Homeowner inconvenienced.
Homeowner loss of heat/ ac during accident and repair.
Howeowner's security system/ ability to lock down house is unavailable.
Homeowner has to be home for window repair company to come.
Employee/ employer having to drive out to repair damage.
Admin. costs for paying out on invoice for repair.
I suppose that in part my point is to illustrate the cascade effect from a F*&^-up.
Roping a questionable limb could have prevented this. Setting up plywood to protect a window could have prevented this. Taking a smaller piece could have prevented this.
Seems like the threat of having to pay for things may be better than the implementation of it. I worked for a window washing company that had one "get out of jail card" per year, after that the employee paid for the repair. Made people careful, but not on eggshells. As was stated, people don't always accept responsibility for their mistakes, and may make the employer "pay for it" in other ways, whether intentional (stealing) or unintentially (bringing down morale/ productivity).
- Location
- Louisville, KY
[ QUOTE ]
well……Karma is real my friend so take all you want…..it will not only cost you more down the road but will be a multitude of blessings to me. By the said employee quitting I have already received my first blessing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry to be so blunt, but what kind of hippie crap is that?
Your assumption is that the employee quitting somehow results in you being better off in the future, which you cannot possibly know.
The point is not to chase off potentially good employees over accident protocol.
Perhaps a better way would be to create a bonus "pool" where the cost of broken items is subtracted. At the end of the year, you distribute what is left throughout the company. An even better way would be to make half of the cost of the broken item come out of that shared "pool" and the other half come from the guilty employees residual share of that "pool".
This emphasizes group cohesiveness and personal responsibility.
But don't take it from my hourly wage. I'd probably fight you over that.
well……Karma is real my friend so take all you want…..it will not only cost you more down the road but will be a multitude of blessings to me. By the said employee quitting I have already received my first blessing.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry to be so blunt, but what kind of hippie crap is that?
Your assumption is that the employee quitting somehow results in you being better off in the future, which you cannot possibly know.
The point is not to chase off potentially good employees over accident protocol.
Perhaps a better way would be to create a bonus "pool" where the cost of broken items is subtracted. At the end of the year, you distribute what is left throughout the company. An even better way would be to make half of the cost of the broken item come out of that shared "pool" and the other half come from the guilty employees residual share of that "pool".
This emphasizes group cohesiveness and personal responsibility.
But don't take it from my hourly wage. I'd probably fight you over that.
treebing
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Detroit, Mi.
I should have fired myself a long time ago.
rfwoodvt
New member
- Location
- This side of eternity.
KYLimb,
I think you are confusing a good employee who is honestly trying to play by the rules and has made an honest mistake versus a competent employee who just doesn't care about any of that stuff.
Any employee who is arrogant enough to steal from the employer or try to deliver some sort of "retribution" after a disciplinary action is not a good employee...period.
A good employee will tend to do the right and honorable thing no matter how much of a jerk the boss man may be.
As for charge backs to cover such damages by taking it from wages that is a very grey area.
We've looked into it because we've had several people who have a habit of damaging tools and equipment due to carelessness and not following company policy.
In one case an employee regularly tossed pole saws out of the tree and instead of hooking the bucket saw on his belt or lowering it on his lanyard would just toss or drop it.
It was a big joke to him to see if he could get the ferrule to stick in the ground.
Anyhow, we chatted with some barristers. First, I have to mention that the lawyers will never give you a clear cut answer. They will tell you, "Here are the options you can use. Should you end up in court you will likely be fine. However, there are no options that will guarantee to keep you out of court and no guarantees that you will not received adverse judgment."
If you have a policy of charge backs for damage and the employees are amply aware of that policy then charge-backs on their paycheck is a viable option.
However, the one thing that is clear is that charge backs applied in any given pay period cannot reduce an employee's paycheck to less than minimum wage for the pay period the check applies to.
Lets say they earn $15/hr and they worked 40 hours per pay period. And lets assume minimum wage is $10/hr.
Lets also say they smash Mrs Jones' fence with a limb they jump cut instead of spider-legging as directed to do by the foreman.
And let's say it costs $700 to replace the damaged fence.
Given their pay rate the paycheck should be $600. Min wage for the same period would give a $400 paycheck.
That suggests you could dock their paycheck up to $200 for this pay period.
Assuming that they work 40 hours every pay period the charge backs would have to be spread over 4 pay periods. $200, $200, $200, $100.
Again, given all your ducks are lined up and you have done everything right, you will probably be OK should the employee cry "foul!" But you can still find yourself in court and with all those expenses to boot and still not win.
Charge backs or "Fines" like this are a bit different from employee purchases which, if I understand correctly, can be deducted in full.
Of course none of this addresses how all of this is recorded for taxes and the accountants... That is a thread unto itself.
I think you are confusing a good employee who is honestly trying to play by the rules and has made an honest mistake versus a competent employee who just doesn't care about any of that stuff.
Any employee who is arrogant enough to steal from the employer or try to deliver some sort of "retribution" after a disciplinary action is not a good employee...period.
A good employee will tend to do the right and honorable thing no matter how much of a jerk the boss man may be.
As for charge backs to cover such damages by taking it from wages that is a very grey area.
We've looked into it because we've had several people who have a habit of damaging tools and equipment due to carelessness and not following company policy.
In one case an employee regularly tossed pole saws out of the tree and instead of hooking the bucket saw on his belt or lowering it on his lanyard would just toss or drop it.
It was a big joke to him to see if he could get the ferrule to stick in the ground.
Anyhow, we chatted with some barristers. First, I have to mention that the lawyers will never give you a clear cut answer. They will tell you, "Here are the options you can use. Should you end up in court you will likely be fine. However, there are no options that will guarantee to keep you out of court and no guarantees that you will not received adverse judgment."
If you have a policy of charge backs for damage and the employees are amply aware of that policy then charge-backs on their paycheck is a viable option.
However, the one thing that is clear is that charge backs applied in any given pay period cannot reduce an employee's paycheck to less than minimum wage for the pay period the check applies to.
Lets say they earn $15/hr and they worked 40 hours per pay period. And lets assume minimum wage is $10/hr.
Lets also say they smash Mrs Jones' fence with a limb they jump cut instead of spider-legging as directed to do by the foreman.
And let's say it costs $700 to replace the damaged fence.
Given their pay rate the paycheck should be $600. Min wage for the same period would give a $400 paycheck.
That suggests you could dock their paycheck up to $200 for this pay period.
Assuming that they work 40 hours every pay period the charge backs would have to be spread over 4 pay periods. $200, $200, $200, $100.
Again, given all your ducks are lined up and you have done everything right, you will probably be OK should the employee cry "foul!" But you can still find yourself in court and with all those expenses to boot and still not win.
Charge backs or "Fines" like this are a bit different from employee purchases which, if I understand correctly, can be deducted in full.
Of course none of this addresses how all of this is recorded for taxes and the accountants... That is a thread unto itself.
- Location
- Louisville, KY
Rick- I understand where you're coming from. However, accidents are a part of tree work. What I'm saying is that docking an employees pay may cost more than you receive, esp. if the employee views it as unfair. An employee doesn't have to steal from you to cost you money. He/she might not finish that job today, even though it would have taken just another hour. Or they may half-step all day. I'm saying that a good employee should not bear the financial cost of breaking stuff. This type of model encourages hiding and covering up mistakes.
- Location
- North of Boston
[ QUOTE ]
Rick- I understand where you're coming from. However, accidents are a part of tree work. What I'm saying is that docking an employees pay may cost more than you receive, esp. if the employee views it as unfair. An employee doesn't have to steal from you to cost you money. He/she might not finish that job today, even though it would have taken just another hour. Or they may half-step all day. I'm saying that a good employee should not bear the financial cost of breaking stuff. This type of model encourages hiding and covering up mistakes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agree with above statements. Docking pay for damages isnt the way to operate.
Rick- I understand where you're coming from. However, accidents are a part of tree work. What I'm saying is that docking an employees pay may cost more than you receive, esp. if the employee views it as unfair. An employee doesn't have to steal from you to cost you money. He/she might not finish that job today, even though it would have taken just another hour. Or they may half-step all day. I'm saying that a good employee should not bear the financial cost of breaking stuff. This type of model encourages hiding and covering up mistakes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agree with above statements. Docking pay for damages isnt the way to operate.
New threads New posts
-
test
-
-
-
Fruit tree holding on by a thread, client wants to get another year out of it. Thoughts?- Started by climbingmonkey24
- Replies: 25
-
-
-
