Private lessons

T

tophopper

Who here has experience instructing private climbing lessons?
I have been approached by several people, but have some reservations.
My questions are this;

What precautions do you take for protecting yourself from liabilty?

Do you carry insurance of some sort(is it necesary?)

Do you use some form of a hold-harmless waiver?

Where do you climb? Stealth like, or do you have granted permission somewhere?

Those are my primary questions,
Im still kickin around what a fair fee to charge would be, and how many hours (min.) are needed for basic instruction. At school, I have 32 hours over an 8 week period to instruct basic climbing, and it hardly seems enough. No way someone will want to pay me for 32 hours of private instruction. Best I can figure to make it worth my while, is to teach of group of 4 at a flat rate of some sort.

Thank you in advance for your input.
 
I've shown people how to climb on 2 occasions. Casual, but informative. People seemed to understand that they are responsible for knowing what they are doing. I'm sure there are types of insurance one could buy if you were going to be doing this a lot.

One time was in a forest where I'd climbed a lot. The other was in the person's front yard. They had a nice oak tree that was perfect for the lesson.

I charged per day each time. Flat rate.

love
nick
 
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I charged per day each time. Flat rate.

love
nick

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each time? Do you require more than one day minimum or do you show them the very basics, supervise them for the day and off they go or what?
What I mean is, should someone be taught to climb a tree in only one day?
 
Each time? Oh, my bad. These were 2 seperate people on 2 seperate occasions.

No, a person SHOULDN'T be taught to climb in one day. But if they've read a few things, seen a few pictures, tried a few things, one day can be enough to correct a few wrongs and refine a few techniques.

If you were starting from scratch, I wouldn't expect a person to be able to ascend a tree 1 month later after a 1 day class- unless they put in some effort on their own time to practice and learn more.

love
nick
 
You raise some important questions.

I am an attorney, certified tree worker, and co-owner of Treetop Adventures, which my certified arborist partner and I operate as a side business. We provide introductory tree climbing activities for groups of beginners (we do all the set-up and tie all the knots, etc.), and are starting to provide basic recreational tree climbing instruction for people who want to learn to climb independently. So, we have been working through all of the questions you ask.

First, liability protection. Big issue, with no clear answers. For starters, I recommend three essentials: (1) meet or exceed the standards commonly used and taught by well-established and widely respected instructors; (2) a good liability waiver; and (3) liability insurance.

If you provide the same quality and quantity of instruction as the big schools, you will be FAR better off from a liability standpoint than if you provide a lesser level of instruction, especially for beginners. The oldest and largest recreational tree climbing school is Tree Climbers International, which, like us, teaches a two-day basic class. At least one major school (Tree Climbing USA) stretches its basic course over three days. I do not see any way to teach the necessary techniques and, even more imortantly, hazard identification skills in only one day. You can check out our basic syllabus at
http://treetopadventures.com/basic.htm. Our rates are fairly typical, and are listed at the bottom of that webpage.

You can check out some of the big schools that I trust through our links page. I strongly recommend consulting with at least one of them about their course of instruction and standards. All also offer their own instructor courses.

If you would like to see our liability waivers, e-mail me at dave@treetopadventures.com.

Insurance is a big issue for all of us in this business, and is almost cost-prohibitive. Very few companies offer policies. Most schools that I know of are insured through the Worldwide Outfitter and Guides Association, which categorizes and charges tree climbing schools the same as rock climbing schools. I hear insurance is also available through The Camp Team (sports insurance). Both have websites. If you or anyone else knows of anything better, please let me know.

But, take it from an attorney, there is no such thing as absolute liability protection. It is highly unlikely anyone will get hurt under your watchful eye while you are teaching them. But, what about after they set out on their own, relying on your instruction to keep them safe and trying it out a few weeks later for the first time? Will you have taught them enough to recognize hazards they should avoid? Will they have been drilled on how to tie a Blake's hitch (don't even think of teaching anything else to a beginner) well enough to remember it a few weeks later? Did you document what you taught them? Did you test their abilities? Did you provide them with written reference materials to refresh their memories? If they get hurt, can they claim it was partly your fault?

The best liability protection is for NO ONE TO GET HURT, and that requires thorough instruction. If you are serious about teaching tree climbing, especially to amateurs, then do it right or not at all.
 
One thing that helps is to give people a booklet of knots and some rope. Get them to practice and maybe do one or two short evening sessions before going up in the air. Break up the course into sections.

Session 1- ropes are already set up goal of the class is to learn to put on a harness, inspect a tree, tie in a climb around the tree...

Session 2- inspect ropes and gear, selecting anchor points, throwlining, setting lines, further movement (limbwalking) in tree...

You get the idea, call it basic, intermediate and advanced if you want. The nice thing about this system is people don't have to pay for the whole thing to get a taste.

This is tough to do though because people are going to want to be told, congrats, you can go climb a tree on your own at the end of the day. I used to supervise beginning tree workers for months before they could climb on their own.

Dave
 
I do not doubt that a person will quickly forget what I teach them in a one day or one semester class. But how can anyone say it is my responsibility to ensure they do not forget.

Can I blame my high school teachers for the algebra I don't remember? Can I hold my driver's ed instructor if I get in an accident because I forgot he said to stop at the red, octagonal signs? Can I blame Jeff Jepson if my blakes hitch slips?

When you sit behind the wheel, or step up to the base of the tree, YOU are responsible. It's one thing if I set up the ropes for you, tie the knots, clip you in, and show you how to go up, then the tree tips over while you're up there. But if you're on your own and you mess something up, it is your own fault for not properly educating YOURSELF before embarking on something you were not qualified to do.

I would like to see the court that would side against the views I am expressing here.

love
nick
 
If someone does something inherently dangerous, like climbing a big tree or driving a car, reasonably relying (in the eyes of a judge or jury) on the adequacy of your professional teaching services to have given them what they needed to keep them safe, and they get hurt or hurt someone else, then trust me, you should not be surprised if you have to defend yourself in court, no matter how well you taught them. You may well win, but it will probably still cost you.

It may not seem fair, but that's the way it is, and anyone who teaches driving or climbing should be realistic about the legal risks and potential costs.
 
Riz, I'll agree with you. Regardless of what you do, you may have to defend yourself in court. That's the US, baby! I'm waiting for a jury/court to find an teacher liable for future damage caused by a student.

I doubt it will ever happen.

My insurance would be much like you mentioned in the first post you put in on this thread- teach ABOVE currently accepted standards.

love
nick
 
Riz / Dave, Thank you so very much for your most thorough and timely response.
You've obviously done your homework on the subject. The insurance information is is also good to know.
Impressive credentials and great website.

Ill be emailing you for a peek at those waivers. Thanks again
 
Are these courses devoted to recreational climbing? If so than I am comfortable with the angles that are being discussed. If its for anyone even thinking of providing a service NO WAY! I am well aquaintted with a former public school teacher who took a couple 'weekend warrior' courses. He had a HUGE accident in a Basswood that failed 2' above grade. Chalk that incident up to a lack of mentoring and experience. This is a JOB that has to have mentoring and skill development in a controlled environment.
 
The mention of home study is also important. I have good curriculum layout but as i said it is stretched out over 8 weeks. The Tree Climbers Companion would be a required purchase and the course loosely formatted as such.
Having thought about it, I knew one day was not possible. Two or three days is doable.

Riz I see you maintian a 2:1 student ratio. Also impressive
 
Mangoes, yes As of yet, the inquiries have been for rec climbing. Teaching one how to "climb" trees safely is completley different than teaching one to "work" trees safely. That takes years, and we are all still learning there.
 
Dan Kraus & I recently taught a 1-day treeclimbing class at the local community college. The class was held during spring break. There were 8 students in attendance, even though 11 people had signed up. Maximum class size is 24, with 1 instructor budgeted. Due to scheduling, we decided to share the duties, and split the fee. We did luck out--with such low enrollment the class could have been cancelled.

A couple limitations were that we had to provide the gear, and that our textbook "The Tree Climbers Companion" was not stocked by the bookstore. We spent 1 hour in the clasroom, 5 hours in the tree, and worked right thru lunch. A great group of students.
 
Already happened. My flight instructor lost the battle in court. His student flew into a mountain and died. The instructor had a large file of what and when had been taught. ( This includes not flying below 500')Ten years after the pilot got his liscense he was summoned. He lost as he couldn't prove that he didn't tell the dead pilot to not fly into a mountain.
 
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Already happened.... He lost as he couldn't prove that he didn't tell the dead pilot to not fly into a mountain.

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Don't mean to be a punk, but I don't believe it. Do you have a way we can look this case up? If this DID happen, cases like this would be happening daily.

love
nick
 
I too have recently been asked to train a companies employees. I have been looking into these same issues. Glad to have signed up and see these posts.
 
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