Photo of Chainsaw Injury

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Great post Laz2,

I have Homelite and a Mcculloch, both of which have top handles, they are both over 20 years old.

I have always thought that the manufacturers designed the top handled saws for homeowners, thinking they were going to be easier for the homeys to use, not realsing that they were more lethal than the rear handled design.

I also notice these days that gardening equipment suppliers are all now choosing to get into Arb gear as well as the proper arb suppliers.

Whats TV in the UK?
 
Laz,

When I started out, we used Jonsereds top handled saws; about 1977. They were essentially the same saws as Poulan and others marketed (from electrolux, Canada, I think), but not what I thought of as a homeowner market saw. I'll stand corrected on the issue of the original design intention; But whether they were originally designed specifically for arborists or not, manufacturers had to know very early on that a huge propertion of sales was to arborists. So, subsequent versions were "designed" with the arborist market in mind, no?
 
Hi Fred

Yes, of course. I'm not trying to be contrary - I'm talking about the UK; once Stihl realised by the late eighties that the 020 in particular, was being used by 'tree surgeons', they started to redesign and market it specifically at our market. I was at college in '91 studying for my 3 yr Arb National Diploma, when the first prototypes of the 020T showed up. I've still got one! This then morphed into the MS200.

The company I did my apprenticeship with was also a Stihl dealer from the late seventies, and about 5 years ago I helped set up a sponsorship deal with Stihl UK for a brand I used to be associated with. So my comments are about Stihl, as I'm quite familiar with the development of their products in the UK. Doesn't mean that was the case in the US.

Looking at all the old catalogues, the top handled saws were marketed at homeowner logging with a saw horse; i.e. rear leverage isn't required, and the saw is closer and feels less heavy for logging that way. The pics weren't of burly macho men, but slender armed ladies to show how user friendly the saws were (Don't shoot me for that - it was the eighties!!!).

It wasn't long before the accident stats with these saws started to rise, and the european health & safety bods have given the manufacturers a hard time over top handled saws ever since. This culminated in the Top handled saw research for HSE (link in this thread somewhere). Stihl UK took its advice and issued a pamphlet suggesting one handed saw use be used in only extreme situations. They also advised retailers only to sell top handled saws to professional arborists that could produce a certificate of competence for use of a chainsaw from a rope and harness.

I think thats enough history for one night!
crazy.gif
 
Hmm. heated thread, some good points. I've always one handed, never hurt me. I always train new guys to use 2 hands though.
I think as you become more profficient, one handing starts to happen naturally.
I'm happy that some of you do not like to one hand. thats fine by me. If you feel its more 'ergonomic' for you to use 2 hands, I'm really pleased for you. Just dont criticise the rest of us.

As for the first pic shown, that was not a chainsaw injury from work. Maybe a 3/4 inch harvester chain, or a trencher of some type. but NOT a chainsaw injury from one handing.

Grover - You have no credibility here. Give us some proof or statistics if you want to make a valid point. this whole thread is a big 'LOOK AT ME!'
 
so grover, someone putting forward an opinion and asking for proof constitutes a 'bad mood'?

Grow up. stop being so immmature. learn to participate at treebuzz in an adult fashion. Right now, you post like a stroppy teenager.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hmm. heated thread, some good points. I've always one handed, never hurt me. I always train new guys to use 2 hands though.
I think as you become more profficient, one handing starts to happen naturally.
I'm happy that some of you do not like to one hand. thats fine by me. If you feel its more 'ergonomic' for you to use 2 hands, I'm really pleased for you. Just dont criticise the rest of us.

As for the first pic shown, that was not a chainsaw injury from work. Maybe a 3/4 inch harvester chain, or a trencher of some type. but NOT a chainsaw injury from one handing.

Grover - You have no credibility here. Give us some proof or statistics if you want to make a valid point. this whole thread is a big 'LOOK AT ME!'

[/ QUOTE ]

Mr Ed,

This thread was started to highlight the potential for sustaining an injury like the one in the photo.

I started this thread in a response to the number of people on this forum openly advocating the use of a chainsaw one handed.

I am maybe going against the grain with this thread, but then I believe that all tree care companies should have a policy of no one handing in any circumstances whatsoever.

So you or anyone else is not going to convince me that one handing is a good idea, especially if you use language like, "I've always one handed, never hurt me"

As for your comment, "Just dont criticise the rest of us", why the hell shouldn't I criticise the rest of you if you are openly advocating and supporting the one handed use of a chainsaw.

I work with guys of 30 years experience that one hand all day long, never cut themselves once. That does not change my opinion that one handing should be stamped out.

I used to use the chainsaw one handed, I know how easy it is to fall into a bad habit. I made a concious decision to start using the saw two handed at all times.

I have learned that by taking my time and achieving the best possible work position combining knowledge and understanding of advanced tree climbing techniques(re directs, advanced friction hitches) with new innovations with equipment(floating bridge, rope guide) there is no need to ever use the saw one handed.

Try it Mr Ed, set yourself an easily achievable goal.
 
Grover, your completely wrong. I know know this may come as a shock to the system, and you will argue and prevaricate about it. But at the end of the day, nothing you say or do will change the essential wrongness of your point.
I dont beleive you would even know which end of a chainsaw to hold, never mind how to hold one properly.
I wonder where you are using a chainsaw in a tree with 2 hands? last I recall you'd given up treework for good and were working at the airport?
Although I also recall you giving up Treebuzz aswell...
Those of us who use chainsaws with 1 hand (USE - vnot advocate) will still be doing so when your long out of treework and forgotten at TB.

From now on, all I'll see of your posts is

*** you are ignoring this user ***



Caio.
 
It would be an interesting study to do. I googled chainsaw injuries and specifically one-handed use. Statistics didn't reveal one handed use but did show that the part of the body with the second highest number of injuries by a chainsaw was the arm. The foot was the first.

I'm not trying to change anyones habit that feel they have developed the skill and common sense necessary for using the csaw one-handed. But like others here are trying to train those that follow two-handed techniques. One point though is one needs to "walk the walk" if s/he expects others to heed their training.

IMHO
 
[ QUOTE ]
But at the end of the day, nothing you say or do will change the essential wrongness of your point.


[/ QUOTE ]

Mr Ed,

That is one of the greatest responses to any of my posts.

I thought you were as thick as two short planks.

But you are obviously a Mr Ed-ucated man.

Which makes your dogmatism on the issue of one handed use of a chainsaw even more ridiculous.

Hold fast my friend and nothing will get through.
You are set now, no one or no thing will ever change you.
You have lost the wonderous childlike ability to wonder in awe of new ideas.
The youthful enthusiasm you had as a kid is now lost forever.
You have all your opinions and ideas in place, stacked neatly in a file in your head marked; My Beliefs, Do not Touch.

You have succeeded in building a personality for yourself. Albeit a narrow minded one.

Dont worry though, there is still time left to change

Yours faithfully

grover.
wink.gif
 
Grover,

Can't you have some pity on that dead horse,


instead of beating it until no one cares anymore?


I commend your effort to make the world safe from those one-handed chainsaw wielding maniacs, but isn't there some other unsafe practice you can lower the boom on?


Yours faithfully,

Someone you don't know.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Can't you have some pity on that dead horse,


[/ QUOTE ]

Easyphloem,

Not a very nice way to talk about Mr Ed.
smirk.gif
 
I remember about the first month after getting hired by Sam Noonan we had a job where a pretty large Coast Live Oak had uprooted in a storm (armillaria) and was sitting on it's limbs, right next to a highway.

anyway, the tree was obviously a bit sketchy to climb, and Sam initially wanted to get a bucket and piece it out, but then he decided, because of scheduling I believe and other issues, that he'd go up and do it. This is another point I thought was highly commendable, any time there was a sketchy job he would go up, even though he hardly climbed anymore, because he would rather take the risk instead of having his climbers sent up. Pretty cool.

Anyway, to continue the point, the foreman got his line set high in the tree and Sam went up and started dropping some pretty large limbs, and several times he used the chainsaw one handed. At the end of the day I was driving back to the yard with him in his truck, and he started telling me that just because he and the other climbers (with a lot of experience) might use the saw one handed, doesn't mean that it's okay for me to. He said that it takes a lot of experience and decision making to know when it's appropriate to use a saw that way and that I had no right or experience to one-hand, so he'd better see me with two hands at all times.

anyway, I don't want to get in a pissin match with anybody, but coming from a guy like Sam, who was EXTREMELY safety conscience with his employees, it is worth mentioning here.

jp
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...
If you are using a chainsaw one handed then you really should not be calling yourself a professional arborist/treeclimber/tree surgeon.

Your clients and customers are paying for a professional service, and by using the chainsaw one handed you are behaving in an amateur way.
...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm all for two hands on the saw and agree completely that one-handing increases the odds of serious injury significantly... but that statement above is a bit over the top.

Time is not unlimited when you're in a tree and working with a ground crew, so full-on repositioning for every cut to be two handed can be impractical in some situations. Longtime professionals who were doing this job waaaay before the introduction of certification, standards and training have, and still do, use a saw one-handed. People like that exceed professional standards in my book when compared to a newly certified guy fresh out of training with much less practical experience, regardless of how they hold a saw.

Your picture is indeed sobering and will positively affect my attitude with a saw. Images like that stick in my mind a lot longer than reading about how to hold a saw. I appreciate you posting it. I do believe however, that blanket statements about whether someone's behavior is professional or not can't possibly take into account the circumstances that bring it about.

This is dangerous work and until it's done with robots it will remain so... people are going to get hurt, one hand, two hand, handsaw, whatever. Taking the time to reposition is the obvious way to avoid two handing, maybe the guys that estimate jobs and supervise climbers can be more liberal with the time they allow for a given job so the crew can do it right... safely. That would save a lot of injuries by not hurrying people who can use the extra time to work smarter and be safer.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was well said, especially that last part. If estimators will take the risk of putting more time in a job, the crew will have to risk less getting the wood on the ground.

People will always use their own judgment over a set of rules to meet the practical demands of a situation. Pictures can remind them of why certain practices like one hand saw use are last resorts but you can't possibly enforce a two hands rule and expect to compete.

I've not read anyone 'extolling the virtues of one hand saw use'. Most people simply accept it as a risk... one they don't take if there is a practical alternative. Like Stephan said, this is dangerous work. When you climb a tree you're accepting a risk; when you pull out a saw, you're accepting a risk... life is risky.
 
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