Omni block 4.5

Safe working load includeds the total force of the system. Based on the manufactures tensile strength or ABS at a set rating usually 10% or 20% 10-1 or 5-1 sometimes it’s 4.5-1 others it’s 7-1 each piece has different engineering to it. There is in my op a safety factor built into their design and wll calculations, similar to the thread about carabiner breaking strength, They know that each block will withstand repeated 6000lbs static loading thru x number of cycles. if it overloaded by x% that it will do xyz before catastrophic failure. Then they rate accordingly to give themselves a safety factor for both tensile and swl.

Ever noticed rope is rate for Minimum break, Avg break, Tensile strength and Elasticity And then at the end it still warns calculate all operations before proceeding. It’s a recommendation based on their testing but it has lots of variables.

To get a static load rating in 6k range would be 7/8 stable braid. 3/4 is about 4K
That’s at a 5-1 wll as listed on there website, Obviously That doesn’t mean that you get to bomb 4000 or 6000lbs pieces. Again Its the amount of force you can safely input into the system.
 
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Tensile of the block is 30,000. 6k wll, but only 3k per side of the pulley... take into account the report of slop forming in the swivel when repeatedly shock loaded and its not worth the weight for an impact block application in my opinion. As an overhead pulley, I would never have an anchor point in a tree that could handle or something to lower that would provide a 3k static load. My trees just arn't big enough to provide a use for an overhead pulley of that size. Like, lowering a 3k limb. How would you use it, real world, where a omni 2.6 and a strong 1/2 inch rope wouldn't be adequate or an impact block a better safer choice?
 
I don’t have to do it to often, but sometimes well take out a large limb 16-20”dia or even a full lead in the 2500lbs range in one piece especially from a oaks with overhead rigging. 5/8 stable braid 2 spider leg balancers. I probably should and will get a 3/4” line for jobs like that, but I always go up a size for the block and sling.

Big trees make for bigger rigging not all the time,
but there is no substitute when it’s called for...
 
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By recently acquiring a 3/4 CMI Block, in addition to our other big cmi, I now have a great set up for that although we haven’t tried it yet. We’ve done it a few times with the smaller 5/8” block.

Thanks for the refresh. I am going to try an implement that on an upcoming job with the bigger rigging.
 
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A 4000lb object dropped at freefall will, according to most sources, 4000lbs x feet of distance. 6000lbs on that block is working load, not tensile. Tensile is 30,000 lbs. Even if your rope runner sucks and lets the log free fall 6 feet and snaps it to a stop, 6 × 4,000 = 24,000.
Man, I don't mean to ruffle feathers, and I know this thread is a few weeks old, but the math and dynamic load calcs in this thread are not correct, but unfortunately very common. Not picking on anyone here, because this happens in just about every thread discussing dynamic loading. Sorry, I've been commenting in another post about the calcs for dynamic loading and energy absorption being misinterpreted and misunderstood and this is a what I'm talking about.

Okay, so let's forget about the block for bit and just look at the rope and load. So here's how it's works. Load above block has potential energy, when load dropped potential energy converts to kinetic energy, when it loads rope kinetic energy is converted to spring potential energy and heat. So in the above, 4,000 lbs drops 6 ft to start loading line. That's 24,000 ft-lb of potential energy that got converted into 24,000 ft-lb of kinetic energy that's fixing to being converted into 24,000 ft-lb of spring potential energy and a tiny bit of heat. So all we know so far is the amount of spring potential energy and heat that will be created in the rope - but that tells us nothing about how much actual force will be on the rope. To find the force, you must divide the 24,000 ft-lb number by the 20% EA Factor that Yale gives you. So let's say the 20% EA is 400 ft-lb/lb. So (24,000 ft-lb)/(400 ft-lb/lb)=60 lb. That 60 lb is HOW MUCH OF THAT MODEL OF ROPE YOU NEED TO USE in order for the PEAK FORCE TO EXACTLY EQUAL 20% of THE ABS. Now, let's say that rope is 10 lb per 100 ft, so 60 lb of rope is 600 ft. So if I dropped that 4,000 lb log 6 ft onto that 400 ft-lb/lb EA rope and I had exactly 600 ft of rope between the load and friction device - AND I DID NOT LET THE LOAD RUN - the peak force would exactly hit 20% of the ABS. From there, you can figure out what the force would be on the block and rigging point. Now, to take it one step further, if I used the same model rope, but in a larger diameter, then I would not need as many feet of the rope to equal that same 60 lb requirement since the larger diameter provides more rope weight per 100 ft.

So what happens if you use less than 600ft in the above example, then your peak forces will exceed the 20% ABS. Let's say I only used 100ft of the 10 lb/100 ft rope between the load and friction device. That's 1/6 of what I should have used to keep the peak force at 20% ABS, which means I should have used a rope with 1/(1/6), or 6x the EA factor, or alternately, a rope with 6x the weight per 100 ft. Since I did not use a higher EA rope, or a heavier rope, but the 400 ft-lb/lb, 10 lb/100 ft rope, then I generated a peak force that was the square root of 6, or 2.45X times the 20% force, or in other words I just put a peak force of 48% the ABS on that rope. Let's look at another, since we're blocking down. Let's say I only used 30 ft of rope between the load and friction device, then 600 divided by 30 is 20, and the square root of 20 is 4.47, and 4.47 times 20% is 89% of the ABS. In this case you just hit the MBS dropping that load. So, where did the "square root" come from? Hang tight, I answer that below.

EA factors are specific to each X% of ABS. Meaning there is an EA for 10%, another EA for 20%, another EA for 30%, etc. Yale only publishes the 20% EA because that's the percent loading we have accepted out here in the industry. If you wanted to use 10% load max, you would have to talk Yale and the other manufacturers into providing it to you. Or, if you understand the elongation curves (% break vs % elongation), then you can actually derive it on your own. Raw derivation however gets complicated so I won't get into it here.

So, to derive a different EA from a 20% EA that you already have, here's how you do it. Energy Absorption of the rope is really just the area under the curve of Force vs Elongation normalized to 1 lb of rope. In calculus terms it is an integration to find that area. So if my Force vs Elongation curve is linear, then the integration yields a 2nd order function, which means we have an x-squared in the equation. So EA is then a function of the SQUARE of the percent break. So if I know the 20% EA, then to find the 100% EA, I divide 100% by 20%, get 5, then square 5 to get 25, then multiply 25 times the 20% EA, and I now have the 100% EA. If you look at Yale Polydyne with a 576 ft-lb/lb 20% EA, and you want to estimate the "Red" Ultimate EA, which Yale appears to be refering to the 90% break (i.e., MBS) then you divide 90% by 20% to get 4.5, then square 4.5 to get 20.25, then multiply 20.25 times the 576 ft-lb/lb 20% EA and you get 11,664 ft-lb/lb 90% Red Ultimate EA. Yale actually publishes the Red Ultimate EA at 11,187 ft-lb/lb. The minor difference would be attributable to the fact that the Force vs Elongation curve is not perfectly linear, over the graph.
 
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Man, I don't mean to ruffle feathers, and I know this thread is a few weeks old, but the math and dynamic load calcs in this thread are not correct, but unfortunately very common. Not picking on anyone here, because this happens in just about every thread discussing dynamic loading. Sorry, I've been commenting in another post about the calcs for dynamic loading and energy absorption being misinterpreted and misunderstood and this is a what I'm talking about.

Okay, so let's forget about the block for bit and just look at the rope and load. So here's how it's works. Load above block has potential energy, when load dropped potential energy converts to kinetic energy, when it loads rope kinetic energy is converted to spring potential energy and heat. So in the above, 4,000 lbs drops 6 ft to start loading line. That's 24,000 ft-lb of potential energy that got converted into 24,000 ft-lb of kinetic energy that's fixing to being converted into 24,000 ft-lb of spring potential energy and a tiny bit of heat. So all we know so far is the amount of spring potential energy and heat that will be created in the rope - but that tells us nothing about how much actual force will be on the rope. To find the force, you must divide the 24,000 ft-lb number by the 20% EA Factor that Yale gives you. So let's say the 20% EA is 400 ft-lb/lb. So (24,000 ft-lb)/(400 ft-lb/lb)=60 lb. That 60 lb is HOW MUCH OF THAT MODEL OF ROPE YOU NEED TO USE in order for the PEAK FORCE TO EXACTLY EQUAL 20% of THE ABS. Now, let's say that rope is 10 lb per 100 ft, so 60 lb of rope is 600 ft. So if I dropped that 4,000 lb log 6 ft onto that 400 ft-lb/lb EA rope and I had exactly 600 ft of rope between the load and friction device - AND I DID NOT LET THE LOAD RUN - the peak force would exactly hit 20% of the ABS. From there, you can figure out what the force would be on the block and rigging point. Now, to take it one step further, if I used the same model rope, but in a larger diameter, then I would not need as many feet of the rope to equal that same 60 lb requirement since the larger diameter provides more rope weight per 100 ft.

So what happens if you use less than 600ft in the above example, then your peak forces will exceed the 20% ABS. Let's say I only used 100ft of the 10 lb/100 ft rope between the load and friction device. That's 1/6 of what I should have used, which means I should have used a rope with 1/(1/6), or 6x the EA factor, or alternately, a rope with 6x the weight per 100 lb. Since I did not use a higher EA rope, or a heavier rope, but the 400 ft-lb/lb, 10 lb/100 ft rope, then I generated a peak force that was the square root of 6, or 2.45X times the 20% force, or in other words I just put a peak force of 48% the ABS on that rope. Let's look at another, since we're blocking down. Let's say I only used 30 ft of rope between the load and friction device, then 600 divided by 30 is 20, and the square root of 20 is 4.47, and 4.47 times 20% is 89% of the ABS. In this case you just hit the MBS dropping that load. So, where did the "square root" come from? Hang tight, I answer that below.

EA factors are specific to each X% of ABS. Meaning there is an EA for 10%, another EA for 20%, another EA for 30%, etc. Yale only publishes the 20% EA because that's the percent loading we have accepted out here in the industry. If you wanted to use 10% load max, you would have to talk Yale and the other manufacturers into providing it to you. Or, if you understand the elongation curves (% break vs % elongation), then you can actually derive it on your own. Raw derivation however gets complicated so I won't get into it here.

So, to derive a different EA from a 20% EA that you already have, here's how you do it. Energy Absorption of the rope is really just the area under the curve of Force vs Elongation normalized to 1 lb of rope. In calculus terms it is an integration to find that area. So if my Force vs Elongation curve is linear, then the integration yields a 2nd order function, which means we have an x-squared in the equation. So EA is then a function of the SQUARE of the percent break. So if I know the 20% EA, then to find the 100% EA, I divide 100% by 20%, get 5, then square 5 to get 25, then multiply 25 times the 20% EA, and I now have the 100% EA. If you look at Yale Polydyne with a 576 ft-lb/lb 20% EA, and you want to estimate the "Red" Ultimate EA, which Yale appears to be refering to the 90% break (i.e., MBS) then you divide 90% by 20% to get 4.5, then square 4.5 to get 20.25, then multiply 20.25 times the 576 ft-lb/lb 20% EA and you get 11,664 ft-lb/lb 90% Red Ultimate EA. Yale actually publishes the Red Ultimate EA at 11,187 ft-lb/lb. The minor difference would be attributable to the fact that the Force vs Elongation curve is not perfectly linear, over the graph.
Thank you , I appreciate the information. I think I understand it better now. It would be nice if yale explained it that well! My example of dropping a 4000 lb log into an omni block was of course ridiculous and only for example.
 
Man, I don't mean to ruffle feathers, and I know this thread is a few weeks old, but the math and dynamic load calcs in this thread are not correct, but unfortunately very common. Not picking on anyone here, because this happens in just about every thread discussing dynamic loading. Sorry, I've been commenting in another post about the calcs for dynamic loading and energy absorption being misinterpreted and misunderstood and this is a what I'm talking about.

Okay, so let's forget about the block for bit and just look at the rope and load. So here's how it's works. Load above block has potential energy, when load dropped potential energy converts to kinetic energy, when it loads rope kinetic energy is converted to spring potential energy and heat. So in the above, 4,000 lbs drops 6 ft to start loading line. That's 24,000 ft-lb of potential energy that got converted into 24,000 ft-lb of kinetic energy that's fixing to being converted into 24,000 ft-lb of spring potential energy and a tiny bit of heat. So all we know so far is the amount of spring potential energy and heat that will be created in the rope - but that tells us nothing about how much actual force will be on the rope. To find the force, you must divide the 24,000 ft-lb number by the 20% EA Factor that Yale gives you. So let's say the 20% EA is 400 ft-lb/lb. So (24,000 ft-lb)/(400 ft-lb/lb)=60 lb. That 60 lb is HOW MUCH OF THAT MODEL OF ROPE YOU NEED TO USE in order for the PEAK FORCE TO EXACTLY EQUAL 20% of THE ABS. Now, let's say that rope is 10 lb per 100 ft, so 60 lb of rope is 600 ft. So if I dropped that 4,000 lb log 6 ft onto that 400 ft-lb/lb EA rope and I had exactly 600 ft of rope between the load and friction device - AND I DID NOT LET THE LOAD RUN - the peak force would exactly hit 20% of the ABS. From there, you can figure out what the force would be on the block and rigging point. Now, to take it one step further, if I used the same model rope, but in a larger diameter, then I would not need as many feet of the rope to equal that same 60 lb requirement since the larger diameter provides more rope weight per 100 ft.

So what happens if you use less than 600ft in the above example, then your peak forces will exceed the 20% ABS. Let's say I only used 100ft of the 10 lb/100 ft rope between the load and friction device. That's 1/6 of what I should have used, which means I should have used a rope with 1/(1/6), or 6x the EA factor, or alternately, a rope with 6x the weight per 100 lb. Since I did not use a higher EA rope, or a heavier rope, but the 400 ft-lb/lb, 10 lb/100 ft rope, then I generated a peak force that was the square root of 6, or 2.45X times the 20% force, or in other words I just put a peak force of 48% the ABS on that rope. Let's look at another, since we're blocking down. Let's say I only used 30 ft of rope between the load and friction device, then 600 divided by 30 is 20, and the square root of 20 is 4.47, and 4.47 times 20% is 89% of the ABS. In this case you just hit the MBS dropping that load. So, where did the "square root" come from? Hang tight, I answer that below.

EA factors are specific to each X% of ABS. Meaning there is an EA for 10%, another EA for 20%, another EA for 30%, etc. Yale only publishes the 20% EA because that's the percent loading we have accepted out here in the industry. If you wanted to use 10% load max, you would have to talk Yale and the other manufacturers into providing it to you. Or, if you understand the elongation curves (% break vs % elongation), then you can actually derive it on your own. Raw derivation however gets complicated so I won't get into it here.

So, to derive a different EA from a 20% EA that you already have, here's how you do it. Energy Absorption of the rope is really just the area under the curve of Force vs Elongation normalized to 1 lb of rope. In calculus terms it is an integration to find that area. So if my Force vs Elongation curve is linear, then the integration yields a 2nd order function, which means we have an x-squared in the equation. So EA is then a function of the SQUARE of the percent break. So if I know the 20% EA, then to find the 100% EA, I divide 100% by 20%, get 5, then square 5 to get 25, then multiply 25 times the 20% EA, and I now have the 100% EA. If you look at Yale Polydyne with a 576 ft-lb/lb 20% EA, and you want to estimate the "Red" Ultimate EA, which Yale appears to be refering to the 90% break (i.e., MBS) then you divide 90% by 20% to get 4.5, then square 4.5 to get 20.25, then multiply 20.25 times the 576 ft-lb/lb 20% EA and you get 11,664 ft-lb/lb 90% Red Ultimate EA. Yale actually publishes the Red Ultimate EA at 11,187 ft-lb/lb. The minor difference would be attributable to the fact that the Force vs Elongation curve is not perfectly linear, over the graph.

That was cool.

Could also put an Enforcer on a few pieces to look at it empirically...
 
dropping a 4000 lb log into an omni block was of course ridiculous and only for example
I thought 4,000 lb was normal for some of you guys, lol. But, here is a more real example that might surprise some people. Your rope is Yale Double Esterlon 5/8. ABS 14,900 lb, 13 lb per 100 ft, and 20% EA of 265 ft-lb/lb. Really strong stuff. You have no reservations putting a 1,000 lb piece on this stuff. So you're blocking down a big water oak, and you just got below the two leaders and now you're looking at 30" diameter wood 20 ft above ground. Porty is waist high at 3 ft. You want to take a 3 ft piece of the stalk, which you have determined weighs 945 lb. You'll tie a running bowline followed by a marl. The COG of the section is 2 ft above the block, which means the load will fall 4 ft before loading rope. You are totally confident the Double Esterlon is plenty strong.

Okay, so now lets do the math. 945 lb load times 4 ft drop is 3,780 ft-lb of energy. Next 3,780 ft-lb divided by the 20% EA of 265 ft-lb/lb yields 14.3 lbs of rope needed to stay below 20% ABS. Now divide 14.3 lb by 13 lb/100 ft and you arrive at 110 ft of rope required. We already know that we can only have 18.5 ft in the system since the porty is where it is. So we need 110 ft, but we're only giving it 18.5 ft. Now, how many of us actually know whats fixing to come next????

Okay, so we are only using 18.5/110, or 17% of what's required. Another way to say this is we need an actual EA of 110/18.5, or 6.04X the EA of D-Esterlon. Or we need a larger D-Esterlon rope with a cross sectional area 6.04X that of the 5/8 - this equates to a 1-1/2" rope. But since we have neither, let's see how much force will be put on our 5/8. So, if we take the square root of 6.04, we get 2.45. Multiply that by the 20% ABS for the EA, and you get 49%. So that means that drop put 49% of the ABS, or 6,832 lbs of force on the rope. And, it only gets worse as you work your way down the stalk.

Does that surprise you? It did me when I started running numbers on loads. I sure don't take any sizeable loads for granted when I negative block. It also doesnt surprise me why ropes break in this business.
 
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This is amazing information and makes sense to me. Do I fully understand it, not really in the sense of pure math, I can follow along but wouldn't trust myself make the calculations approaching limits. That's okay as long as I respect it and don't take for granted the forces involved. I am just starting to work with MUCH bigger wood then I have ever before and independently. Double whipping (span rigging) and knowing it will be ran correctly, is even more on the forefront of my mind. When dealing with bigger rigs, not just the rating of the gear and piece at face value.

I'll ask as a novice... Do you guys find other approaches? Or find another way to expand the length of the system? For example, redirect block/ring at the base and port'a'wrap remotely set. Make the negative space absolutely as small as possible? Smaller pieces and stronger gear are clearly simple solutions. But not as much fun, nor as productive some times.

Do you find the triple thimble or safe block to help (this is more for the TIP failing, then the rope)?

I love big TIP ties but no longer have access to a GRGC, so I am somewhat limited and it is hard to have the perfect scenario to make it happen.ad

To keep the thread on topic, I'd love to see someone approach the WILL of this pulley on a TIP tie rig. That be bad ass!
 
Cribbing at the base of the tree and a vertical speedline and forget the negative rigging. Otherwise, I cut firewood on the spar instead of on the ground. I suppose it all depends on how big of a hurry you are in, and how big the trees are. I'm never in a hurry and the trees around here are not so big.

These days, I pass on the big ones. I'm getting too old for this shit.
 
Cribbing at the base of the tree and a vertical speedline and forget the negative rigging. Otherwise, I cut firewood on the spar instead of on the ground. I suppose it all depends on how big of a hurry you are in, and how big the trees are. I'm never in a hurry and the trees around here are not so big.

These days, I pass on the big ones. I'm getting too old for this shit.
I myself will alway look to a vertical speed line before considering negative rigging.
 
vertical speedline and forget the negative rigging.
I agree and have been trying to do this as much as possible as soon as I learned about vertical speedlines. Unfortunately I first seen the technique on here. Which is sad, because I never saw anybody do it on the job in my life untill I learned it on the internet a few years ago. So I did tree work for like 10 years or so but only a few of those years climbing full-time and only saw speedlines for limbs and if any wood came down on the speedline, it went to a separate anchor, like the limbs did.
Blows my mind looking back.
I can't thank all of you guys and treebuzz enough...
 
I myself will alway look to a vertical speed line before considering negative rigging.
I am new to this industry and have read a couple of responses and threads about vertical speed lines. Would you care to share your favorite setup? I’m not climbing your monsters as I am in SW Virginia but think I could put it to use. . . Thanks!
 

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