New HitchHikerXF

Richard Mumford-yoyoman said:
...and because I know someone will write, just go with a, fill in the blank mechanical...
I don't have "big top exposure", I don't worry about something collapsing in a 3:1 or other other MA, or re-direct or dragging my tail over a branch. I don't have a spring to break, get weak, stick or otherwise fail to engage when I need it.
Hitch cord for me most of the time.
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These are cool I've got nothing against them but my rrp also had no spring, I can't really think of any way it's likely to fail works smooth, I can drop a slic pin but it looks like you could drop one as well, the other climber on our crew dropped his hitch cord the other day and had to spend 10 minutes looking for it. Either is fine it's just largely just preference, that said doing multiple small prunes like 10 trees in a day speed of setup matters to me and 3 slic pins for me is way faster than having to set up a hitch.
 
Vicente said:
These are cool I've got nothing against them but my rrp also had no spring, I can't really think of any way it's likely to fail works smooth, I can drop a slic pin but it looks like you could drop one as well, the other climber on our crew dropped his hitch cord the other day and had to spend 10 minutes looking for it. Either is fine it's just largely just preference, that said doing multiple small prunes like 10 trees in a day speed of setup matters to me and 3 slic pins for me is way faster than having to set up a hitch.
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Fair enough but let me make a couple of points.
1. There are those on a Blakes hitch that would probably disagree when it comes to setup time. There are those doing multiple trees in a day using a hitch based system that leave it on the rope. Not doubt though, I can put a Unicender, Akimbo or RRP on a rope much faster than I can put the HH on rope. In fact in your example it takes me about 30 seconds to put the HH on rope and the Uni about 5, so 10 x 25 seconds or just over 4 minuets every day. I just spent more time than that talking about it. Everyone has their priorities and sometimes those can vary.
2. Don't take this personal but your RRP does indeed have a spring and it is critical to know that it is working and should be inspected and monitored for failure. (Actual failure is very uncommon) If it fails or fails to function and you don't notice, the device is more than likely NOT going to engage the rope and a climber could fall to a serious injury or death. IMO every good multicenter must have a spring or method to automatically engage the rope and a climber should be aware of what it is and how it works. Mechanicals have a mechanical spring, on a hitch based system, the "spring" is in the way the hitch is tied. The hitch must engage automatically for reasons stated above but bears repeating, avoiding death.
3. I would love to have all the time I have spent looking for things back in my life, I could probably get at least a week, who knows, maybe a month vacation, I misplace and drop a lot of things. ;)
4. "I can't really think of any way it's likely to fail" Spend some time thinking about how something can fail, every device can fail and thinking about it may prevent it. Again, don't take that personally as it applies to ALL OF US and ALL OF OUR GEAR.
 
Richard Mumford-yoyoman said:
... IMO every good multicenter must have a spring or method to automatically engage the rope and a climber should be aware of what it is and how it works. Mechanicals have a mechanical spring, on a hitch based system, the "spring" is in the way the hitch is tied...
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I'm not entirely enamored with your "spring" interpretation or the requirement of it for engagement with a mechanical and particularly with a hitch.

'Friction' alone is more than sufficient in initiating engagement. Any rope-on-rope contact 'will' have a frictional component in a well executed hitch system. This same 'contact' as a way of starting engagement, is also true with mechanicals as well.

Where a 'spring or spring-like' action is needed is, when in our quest for friction-free advancement, we purposely remove that contact.
 
DSMc said:
I'm not entirely enamored with your "spring" interpretation or the requirement of it for engagement with a mechanical and particularly with a hitch.

'Friction' alone is more than sufficient in initiating engagement. Any rope-on-rope contact 'will' have a frictional component in a well executed hitch system. This same 'contact' as a way of starting engagement, is also true with mechanicals as well.

Where a 'spring or spring-like' action is needed is, when in our quest for friction-free advancement, we purposely remove that contact.
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I can appreciate not being enamored. ;)
I use "spring" as it is a common physical object on most mechanical devises that are are capable of providing some tension to then provide some friction, to then provide the functional friction we need for life support and functionality. I absolutely agree that it is 'friction' that causes the initial engagement of our 'friction' device after we have tried to remove as much friction as is reasonable to assist our ascent. But without that tension or spring rebound of some kind to initiate friction we are missing a life support component.
I like the way the Unicender calls it a "bias spring". Even your common rope grab used for a lanyard has a spring, it is the cable that keeps the cam from falling to the ground when the device is opened to install the rope but it is configured such that when in place, it keeps the cam in contact with the rope so that it will engage automatically.
I believe that it is very important for a climber to understand this concept and make sure that it functions. If it is not a physical spring, then that component that provides the initial friction, must be understood, identified and maintained in working order including keeping it properly configured and protected to function.

 
Thanks for the descriptive and visual presentation of your reason for using the word "spring" as a descriptor for engagement. It is nice to be able to discuss things without it turning into an argument.

My point was, however, that if the hitch or climbing/clamping device has the adjustability to ensure frictional contact, a spring would only be a performance assist rather than a critical component.

Of the examples of straight through climbing devices shown, only the Unicender has fixed, non-adjustable rope openings. The Akimbo, RR, RRP and, of course, a hitch can be set for continuous contact with the climbing line while at the same time, still releasing enough for slack removal and low friction ascents.
 
DSMc said:
Thanks for the descriptive and visual presentation of your reason for using the word "spring" as a descriptor for engagement. It is nice to be able to discuss things without it turning into an argument.

My point was, however, that if the hitch or climbing/clamping device has the adjustability to ensure frictional contact, a spring would only be a performance assist rather than a critical component.

Of the examples of straight through climbing devices shown, only the Unicender has fixed, non-adjustable rope openings. The Akimbo, RR, RRP and, of course, a hitch can be set for continuous contact with the climbing line while at the same time, still releasing enough for slack removal and low friction ascents.
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I think we agree. However a device applies "frictional contact", it has to have some variable to keep it in contact. Some tension to adjust to say a slight variation in rope size or shape, just something. That to me is most easily explained as a "spring" whether it be metal, textile or something else that can hold and apply variable tension.
So, however it happens, a device must have a method of initiation the action of life supporting friction without conscious action from the climber. A climber needs to be aware that that function is there, understand how it works and protect its ability to function. That may look like testing it, cleaning it, oiling it, keeping it clear of objects, using proper rope diameter for "frictional contact", keeping slack out of the system, keeping it properly configured and oriented etc.
For the HHxf and other hybrid devices, it is some amount of tension in the hitch cord.
Thanks for he input.
 
SeanRuel said:
Having not used that system I couldn't say. Looks slick, really cool design. Do you have any frustration with the sit back from the pivoting of the quickie?
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Well to be exact it is not a Quickie and not a shackle but is called a Swing Arm, minor difference I know but it is different.
About sit-back, I find it not to be an issue. I make my ascent then sit back, so a few inches out of 50 feet is not significant. If it bothered my I will take the Swing Arm and move the body up and push the hitch up and illuminate all sit back before I 'sit-back'. What always bothered me is having slack on a carabiner attachment during SRT ascent, sitting back to discover the carabiner is sideways or reversed or moved in some other manner. That is my life support and while an SRT device is being tending, for most climbers, it is slack. Having to use keepers or captive eye carabiners to keep things from being side loaded bothered me.
The Swing-Arm is designed to be unaffected by being unloaded. It self orienting, will not go sideways, or have a gate that gets cross loaded.
 
Richard Mumford-yoyoman said:
Well to be exact it is not a Quickie and not a shackle but is called a Swing Arm, minor difference I know but it is different.
About sit-back, I find it not to be an issue. I make my ascent then sit back, so a few inches out of 50 feet is not significant. If it bothered my I will take the Swing Arm and move the body up and push the hitch up and illuminate all sit back before I 'sit-back'. What always bothered me is having slack on a carabiner attachment during SRT ascent, sitting back to discover the carabiner is sideways or reversed or moved in some other manner. That is my life support and while an SRT device is being tending, for most climbers, it is slack. Having to use keepers or captive eye carabiners to keep things from being side loaded bothered me.
The Swing-Arm is designed to be unaffected by being unloaded. It self orienting, will not go sideways, or have a gate that gets cross loaded.
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The sit back is negligible. Works like a charm! I started thinking about what I was connecting to the swing arm. I have my chest or over the shoulder lanyard. But I was also attaching my knee ascender bungee. In pondering that away from the climb, I think I was working against the self-orienting system. Next outing, I’ll connect to a different spot.
 
Vicente said:
These are cool I've got nothing against them but my rrp also had no spring, I can't really think of any way it's likely to fail works smooth, I can drop a slic pin but it looks like you could drop one as well, the other climber on our crew dropped his hitch cord the other day and had to spend 10 minutes looking for it. Either is fine it's just largely just preference, that said doing multiple small prunes like 10 trees in a day speed of setup matters to me and 3 slic pins for me is way faster than having to set up a hitch.
Click to expand...
Not long ago somebody on here made a thread about an Incident they had with their rrrp. Long story short he was out on a limb walk and lost balance and fell to the opposite side of the limb that his tail was on which caused the device to collapse and engage a descent.
I believe no injury just an unexpected spooky descent to the ground.
I believe he was a certified arborist with his own accredited business.
It may have even had an article in the tcia
 
Mowerr said:
Not long ago somebody on here made a thread about an Incident they had with their rrrp. Long story short he was out on a limb walk and lost balance and fell to the opposite side of the limb that his tail was on which caused the device to collapse and engage a descent.
I believe no injury just an unexpected spooky descent to the ground.
I believe he was a certified arborist with his own accredited business.
It may have even had an article in the tcia
Click to expand...
I almost use a secondary lanyard/flip line when limb walking as well, oftentimes I'll switch out to my camp giant once I'm in the canopy as well it's just really easy to work with.
 
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