Minneapolis treecutter cries foul!

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ISA exam; $250ish, recert every 3years $300ish, 30 CEU's ain't free. You do get that snazzy patch and sticker though. Figure by the time all said and done it costs $800 a year that you may as well burn.


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In Canada, are you not able to write that stuff off come tax time?
 
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ISA exam; $250ish, recert every 3years $300ish,

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WRONG! $150 to take and 100 to keep (<$.01/day) for members. $250 and $200 (<$.02/day) for nonmembers. Lots of CEUs are free, lots more are cheap.



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With those mad math skilz I hope you aren't mixing pesticides or figuring loads on a line!
beerchug.gif
 
Many muni's are trying to find a standard. The ISA CA is the best answer, for the reasons others have already stated. I believe some of y'al posting do know how to trim/remove, and are professional and safe. The problem they have is what is the best way for you to prove it to them that is an equal standard across the board. It is too much trouble for someone to go out and look at the last 10 jobs of every comp wanting the gig. The ISA CA, while not perfect, at least provides a base in which to judge and choose the best company for the price.

If you are not a CA, what standard should people judge you by? How do you let people know you are different from the local hacks? If I was a HO or prop mngr, and you can't prove to me you can pass a basic industry standard, why should I hire you?

Why should I want to bid a job to a person who doesn't care about how their tree looks, who doesn't care to be educated about proper tree maintenance, and just wants the lowest price? Too bad there is not a standard for customers, but at least there is an attempt at making one for the arborists.
 
In the end I do not pay out of pocket for my CA nor the CEU's to maintain it. My Client's do. The cost of doing business.

Tony
 
Personally I think he should get certified. I am not certified but everyone I work with is, and I feel confident I can properly prune or remove about any tree. I still am going to get certified though, because I think it shows people you care about trees and not that you are in it to make money.. I will be taking the test shortly and cost is just cost of doing business.

How much are court fees for suing? or how much is he paying lawyers? Probably more than certification for employees. Doesn't seem like a valid argument at all.

I know a lot of people around here that laugh at safety and certifications, but I would rather be respected by clients and appreciated rather than be looked at as the cheapest option no matter the results. I don't think people that aren't certified are automatically hacks, but I do think that people with certifications and regards for safety standards should be honored for it.

Just my opinion, though.
 
I'd sure like to be in the courtroom when his case is held. His attorneys might have some interesting points about how the requirement to have a CA on staff restricts his ability to pursue his profession. It seems like the attorney is claiming that having a CA on staff doesn't necessarily protect the public from harm. Without knowing the law its too hard to try and understand the basis for the case.

Having the same requirement for doing city contract work could be up for discussion next.

I can sure support the requirement of having a CA on staff but I can sure understand how that might not have legal standing too.
 
Often the people making the decision to hire us is a certified professional in their field. They have been required to obtain this certification at a much greater expense and acquire the requisite CEUs each year to maintain their accreditation. And like us, there are those who they compete with that aren't accredited yet perform similar duties.

So, think about this from their perspective. They have agreed to a program -and I'm sure find fault with the organizing bodies- and still participate in it. They see it as giving them a standard by which they can assess the competitors prior to seeing the actual work.

ISA and TCIA may not be the best but they're at least making an attempt to create a standard that creates a level playing field in the eyes of the marketplace. Use it to your advantage.
 
Another case of Tree guys being there own worst enemy's, add lawyers and Insurance companies

I can maybe shed a little light on the city's impetus for an ISA cert component to the license.
Formerly owning a large Tree company in Mpls metro area,(me an old fart), I took the first ISA cert test (EASYpeasy) and barely passed it to be #7 in MN(me not to bright), and we became the first accredited company in MN, 11th in the Nation (a great Biz move).
I had various suburban City Elm removal contracts over the years, I generally picked the small ones 80 to 200 trees max a year. I considered it filler work. keep the men & equip busy ya-no.
Minneapolis would approach me and other "reputable" contractors at seminars, wondering why we would never bid on there contract. Voicing there displeasure with the contractors they had to work with.

Our common Answer, as "reputable" tree firms we could not compete with the lo ballers that qualified for the BS license they had.
We pointed out to the City powers that they were hiring contractors who often did not use or own PPE, had questionable training, paid cash to their workers, often used unsafe equipment.
(I am guilty of all the above in my start up years)
There were many instances of "licensed contractors" selling made up arboriculture, tree mutilation, and cases of fraud perpetrated on the public and the communities trees.

I think they (the city) and there lawyers realized their liability for contracting with the lowest bidders with no qualifications for a license other than a checkbook.

They wondered how they could possibly get a better crop of licensees and bidders, they settled on ISA cert as an easily attainable benchmark. Not to say an ISA cert treeguy is always better than a non cert treeguy, but chances are it does raise a treeguys arboricultural bar a little.

For all you who poo poo the ISA and TCI, you have to realize when I started there was no internet to learn from. Starting as a hack with a PU and a chainsaw thank God I found them and they were there to educmacate me. who knows how many more trees I woulda hacked. The Top Notch old Dogs on this site, most likely learned a ton from these 2 orgs dedicated to OUR industry, you pups have the advantage of the Internet to learn from all our collective knowledge & experience through this great website.

god I hate typing
 
$100.00 / 1,095 days = $.091324/day. O woe is they, who must pay, such a weighty sum! (gotta wonder how much he's forkin out for the loyyer...)

tnt, try dictation next time. Thanks for the history behind the hoo-hah.
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Another case of Tree guys being there own worst enemy's, add lawyers and Insurance companies

I can maybe shed a little light on the city's impetus for an ISA cert component to the license.
Formerly owning a large Tree company in Mpls metro area,(me an old fart), I took the first ISA cert test (EASYpeasy) and barely passed it to be #7 in MN(me not to bright), and we became the first accredited company in MN, 11th in the Nation (a great Biz move).
I had various suburban City Elm removal contracts over the years, I generally picked the small ones 80 to 200 trees max a year. I considered it filler work. keep the men & equip busy ya-no.
Minneapolis would approach me and other "reputable" contractors at seminars, wondering why we would never bid on there contract. Voicing there displeasure with the contractors they had to work with.

Our common Answer, as "reputable" tree firms we could not compete with the lo ballers that qualified for the BS license they had.
We pointed out to the City powers that they were hiring contractors who often did not use or own PPE, had questionable training, paid cash to their workers, often used unsafe equipment.
(I am guilty of all the above in my start up years)
There were many instances of "licensed contractors" selling made up arboriculture, tree mutilation, and cases of fraud perpetrated on the public and the communities trees.

I think they (the city) and there lawyers realized their liability for contracting with the lowest bidders with no qualifications for a license other than a checkbook.

They wondered how they could possibly get a better crop of licensees and bidders, they settled on ISA cert as an easily attainable benchmark. Not to say an ISA cert treeguy is always better than a non cert treeguy, but chances are it does raise a treeguys arboricultural bar a little.

For all you who poo poo the ISA and TCI, you have to realize when I started there was no internet to learn from. Starting as a hack with a PU and a chainsaw thank God I found them and they were there to educmacate me. who knows how many more trees I woulda hacked. The Top Notch old Dogs on this site, most likely learned a ton from these 2 orgs dedicated to OUR industry, you pups have the advantage of the Internet to learn from all our collective knowledge & experience through this great website.

god I hate typing

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Well said Dave!
 
In theory, certification is a great idea. In practice, not so much. I was one of the first in Floridas to become an ISA certified arborist, back when Florida was part of the Southern Chapter. I wanted to stand out among the competition as a leader in the field on the cutting edge, so to speak. These days, the ISA seems to be more interested in generating revenue than in helping the individual arborist. How many new certifications can they come up with? I think they've lost sight of their purpose in pursuit of more money.
 
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In theory, certification is a great idea. In practice, not so much. I was one of the first in Floridas to become an ISA certified arborist, back when Florida was part of the Southern Chapter. I wanted to stand out among the competition as a leader in the field on the cutting edge, so to speak. These days, the ISA seems to be more interested in generating revenue than in helping the individual arborist. How many new certifications can they come up with? I think they've lost sight of their purpose in pursuit of more money.

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Thank You!!!
 
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In theory, certification is a great idea. In practice, not so much. I was one of the first in Floridas to become an ISA certified arborist, back when Florida was part of the Southern Chapter. I wanted to stand out among the competition as a leader in the field on the cutting edge, so to speak. These days, the ISA seems to be more interested in generating revenue than in helping the individual arborist. How many new certifications can they come up with? I think they've lost sight of their purpose in pursuit of more money.

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i'm also an individual arborist, but isa's purpose was never solely helping the individual arborist. Kinda biased and uncharitable to think so--memememe! wwjs?

Be that as it may,(no arguments w your view--ISA is becoming ISAUF), that's beside the point of the ordinance and the lawsuit. It's about getting the bar set somewhere higher than the floor that Dave saw it on. Let's keep our eyes on the prize, and stop making Lincoln squeal.
 
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For all you who poo poo the ISA and TCI, you have to realize when I started there was no internet to learn from. Starting as a hack with a PU and a chainsaw thank God I found them and they were there to educmacate me. who knows how many more trees I woulda hacked. The Top Notch old Dogs on this site, most likely learned a ton from these 2 orgs dedicated to OUR industry, you pups have the advantage of the Internet to learn from all our collective knowledge & experience through this great website.

god I hate typing

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You make some good points Dave but I think the best one is that the internet as it is today, and it's only going to get better, is an excellent place for learing about arboriculture.

The ISA CA falls far short of encompassing even the most basic knowledge required to operate a tree care service in a metropolitan area.

Requiring that a CA be 'on staff' to work in various areas is being challenged on constitutional grounds. The effort at the unionizing of the tree care industry by bureaucrats is not a positive or legal move.
 
I really think by whatever means, Arborists need to organize to educate the public and defend ourselves from hacks. Minneapolis is doing something right as it has the best group of dedicated Arborists I've seen. I wish we in the Detroit area could organize a bit better.
 
I agree with you completely about the ISA falling short but until we can come up with something better, it's the best thing we got. I believe at the moment if more municipalities and homeowners cared, the ISA will mean more which to me would be great I would love it if the tests were harder, the ceu's were more stringent and meaningful. Right now I don't even notice being a certified arborist, financially or educationally. I look foward to getting the board master certified... I just wish somebody besides me would care.
 
"The ISA CA falls far short of encompassing even the most basic knowledge required to operate a tree care service in a metropolitan area."

Brother Del, I agree. The CA was NEVER meant to encompass even the most basic knowledge required to operate a tree care service in a metropolitan area. TCIA does an excellent job of this, and the Society of Commercial Arborists exists to fill the gap for those too cheap to join TCIA. CA is simply about basic care.

20 years ago, CA was the cat's meow, and it meant so much for so long that we were--and still are--spoiled rotten, getting so much for so little. Now it's like a HS diploma, and the plaintiff in this case is beyotching long and loud about needing one before the city trusts their trees to his company. What a crock.

Kevin, well said. A lot of others care, and you will be in better shape to connect with clients who are smart and rich enough to do right by their trees when you get your BCMA; the best investment that I make for my company.
 
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... I look foward to getting the board master certified... I just wish somebody besides me would care.

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Go for it, Kevin. I think you will find that there are many people, even in the private sector, that will understand what it means and respect the effort you put into getting it.

Dave
 
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