losing the classic skills

roachy

roachy

Location
turnersville nj
I am just curious if any of you feel as I do that with the advancements such as bigger buckets and cranes being used more often,that the climber is going to become obsolete.The more so-called experienced climbers I meet the more I understand that something is being lost.You take some of these people out of a bucket and they are lost,take away the crane and they can't remove a tree,but they expect to be payed top dollar.Dont get me wrong I am all for training people I am just wandering if we are losing something in the translation just because its easy to get the bucket in on plywood.
 
This is an age old story, Jim. Many careers and skillful artesians have been replaced by technology. I don't think that the tree biz will be doing away with the climber any time soon, though. To me, some jobs are better off climbed, even if the equipment can be used. Proper pruning on a dense Pin oak or Linden need to be done from the inside (And it is usually faster).

Maybe what we are seeing is the fact that there are too many unqualified workers being sent into battle, and when they come to you with "10 Years of Climbing Experience" they really should be looked at as "Greenies."
rolleyes.gif
 
Yes Mark I agree but I guess the point I was trying to make is are employers begining to no longer worry about training as much because of the use this equipment is now so common.
Glenn can tell you we have a 75' bucket and I often refuse to use it even though this makes my boss angry!I feel that it is pushed to be used often just because we have it!Granted I'm old school and just want to climb everything but that keeps me fresh and excited about my job.I do try to share some of the things I've learned with the "greenies"but most seem to Know it all and I have to ask why they cant keep a job!
 
hi,guys;

There are many situations which require the skills of a good tree climber. Not all removals or trees to be pruned are accesible with heavy equipment.

Joe
 
Good topic!

If our profession keeps on the track it is going we may see the resurection of the quild aspect of training. The guilds started in Europe hundreds of years ago and have evolved into a standardized training system for the trades. Apprentice through Master with standard skills, knowledge and time in service records.

Until this comes about, there will always be "climbers" who claim they can do-it-all. A good test is to toss them a rope and have them tie a saddle. If a person can't climb fiber should they be allowed to climb hydraulic fluid? Carpenters need to master the hammer and handsaw before they can use a nail gun and circle saw.

Since the US is the "Land of the Free" too many folks feel that any regulation or standard is an infringement on their "right" to do what ever they want to do. When it comes to work practices, is it their right to do sub-standard work?

"The more so-called experienced climbers ..." may just have time in service. As time goes by the prima dona attitude seems to become more evident.

Since I was never in the military I don't know what the ribbons are called that are above the left pocket, over the heart. They signify schools, actions, a tours of duty I think. How would that look on arborists? A climber couldn't get the chainsaw-in-the-tree [chainsaw overlayed on a tree] ribbon until they have the handsaw-on-the-ground [handsaw overlayed on turf]ribbon and the service-the-chainsaw [chainsaw crossed with a scrench] ribbons too.

Tom
 
I looked at last year (2001), I was 50-50 on climbing and using my bucket . I did about roughly 40 large crane jobs (35 ton&up). I think using the bucket when I did , and the cranes makes me stay young . I started tree work for my Dad , 5 crews , all old guys, all broke down . Not much training other than OJT, and no equipment . No hearing , busted shoulders , broken backs and a paycheck my youngest kid would laugh at . Now , I like big tree work, been doing it since I was a kid , I'm glad we have all this equipment , I have perfect hearing , my backs fine , my shoulders are fine . I think when you can mix both worlds (old style & now ) work is fun . Like Tom said , take all the toys away and we'll still get this job done(not all) . Jim , I feel your pain , I just get paid more for my bucket than my saddle , and 75 ft. still is a good elevator ride , saves alot of energy .
 
yea Glenn its a good lift .I am the first to use a crane for removals,I love it.I also love using the bucket to lower the wood,when we can get it in to position,but moving plywood can be rough on the back too.But you know what I can do it without if needed and would like the new guys to be able as well.
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I would have to somewhat agree with what Jim is saying. But I have to wonder a little bit. The man who posted this topic is one who has more new gagets than anyone I know.I will say he is the best I have worked with. I can remember growing up watching my dad. The man had a rope and a leather saddle. He had no safety lanyard, no throw balls, no ascenders, nothing like what we use today. We have to keep in mind we use these new tools in the name of safety. I don't ask to have a crane brought out because I know of no other way of getting it down. I don't bring out the bucket because I can't climb it. Sometimes it is more cost effective, safer and quicker to use these methods. You may have a tree to remove that is so large that if you were to remove it useing conventional methods it may take you two days to remove it. Where as with a crane you can have it down and cleaned up in a day. No one wants a tree crew loitoring on there property any longer than need be inconviencing them. I agree it is good to be able to move about a tree efficiently. I also believe we need to remember those old school methods of drop crotching and lowering with out the use of pulleys and straps. We have all seen so called experienced climbers come and go. There is no real answer but to say we need work with one another and share our experiences and knowledge with those we work closely with. We all been there.
 
No question about it; in man-i-pulating these gi-ants bigger than wee; wee must use overwhelming force to positively usher good results. Sometimes these forces are within our grasp, and sometimes, the super-ior overwhelming force of the crane and its applications is the most log-i-call overwhelming force to employ!
 
once agian I think my point is being lost in the equipment.I didnt intend to have you think that I am against the use of these monsters.What I am against is any company forceing an untraind person into a bad situation simply for the lack of some good quality training.This web site is a perfect tool for letting climbers learn from each other and also open the eyes of some who are just realizing that they dont know as much as they thought.
 
Roachy, I believe I can understand where your comming from.I work for a municipality where production is not alwaays the issue. Although, I'm a motivated type of person,I make production more of and issue.we are able to train almost every two weeks wich I head up. I cover topics ranging from ,areial rescue,tower traing all phases of climbing,prunning concepts rigging and so on and so forth. However , what I've noticed iin the pvt idustry is that they are into production. Most are not all.Time is money.Therefor trainning is not the issue;even though in the long run it would pay off for them.I put on a climbing class evry year.Fifty to sixy people attend this. one group in particular that shows up evry year , is a well known co. in town.My instructors and I have showed them almost every technique in climbing that is modern, also includig all the newer rigging equiptment When I see them out on the street do you think their using what they where taught?.Nope , back to the same old stuff. Burnning up ropes and body thrusting up the tree. Not that I have anything against body thrusting it's one of the basics and needs to be learned. Because the employer feels they dont have the time to train, is making a more inefficient crew and I have a prob. with that.I train my crews for safty and swiftness and to be able to think for themselves.I dont believe in holding back information from them either. A employer who feels he has to know all, is an insecure business man and will also creat bad morale on the crew. You can train on the job site, it just may take more time to develope a efficient crew
 
I don't feel as though we need to train on the job. We should all want to better ourselves and our skills. Personaly I make it a point to learn as much on my own as I can. I take the time on the weekends to practice and learn new techniques on my own time. For some those in the industy they are only on the job for the paycheck. They are not driven to become better climbers nor do they care. I belive most employers would be wasteing their time and money. I attended an Arbormaster session once where my employer asked me what I thought. I told him he was wasteing his money. I was being shown rigging tools that I have been asking for for months. Tools I already know how to use but are not offered to me. It didn't make any sense.
 
Hi Big John, I dont think we've met ,I'm Greg from California.I do agree with you in the fact that in order to become good at what you do you must go outside the relm of your work.however, in he area I'm from the people are alittle surpressed from the rigging and climbing techniques they should be learning . I was fortunate enough to learn from some of the best in California. The California Arborist association was a big aid to this.I feel it's never a wast of time to go to a class or session only if you learn one thing to help you in the field.sometimes the seminars are repititious and you may know evrything thier talking about, but hey! thats the way it goes and your supporting your chapter.
 
Hi Greg you are right on track with some of what I'm talking about.I must admit my company is all about production but not at the expense of safety or quality.I myself try to share what I have learned from guys like Mark and Glenn but it often goes in one ear and out the other and that is often frustrating.I have a little hope for Bigjon,ha ha
 
Hey Jim I apprreciate your confidence in me. I am like Bounty the quicker picker upper. I am ready soak up any and all info. Anything to make my job easier, safer and just more fun I can appreciate.
 
Greg it's a pleasure to meet you. I am all about going to events and classes. I like to mingle and mix it up with the fellas.I agree alot it is repititious but there are always a few new things to see. Anyway you can lead the horse to water but you can't make him drink. The guys have to be excited about what they are doing to want to learn more about it.
 
All this talk about cranes and buckets got me thinking about what's next... maybe a chipper that is hoisted and lowerred by crane to chip the tree from the top down, with a chute right into the truck. Now that would really take the fun out of it.
On a more serious note..
My wife is from California and would like to move back (from Philly). We go out every year for Christmas. So I was thinking of starting up out there, and was doing a little research on "sudden oak death", which has since been renamed "oak mortality syndrome". This is a fairly new disease that is decimating oak populations in specific regions, and there is some concern of it spreading to other regions and even nationwide since they don't know much about what conditions are responsible. I read about a tree service that removed ... I think it was 500... oaks from the side of a hill using helicopters. Not my idea of a good time.
So any of you west coasters ever use helicopters? I'd like to hear a few stories and tips.
Thanks,
Daniel
 
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