Lithium powered saws?

The 535i your talking about is 2yrs old? I thought that one just came out & the 536li was the older one..

Good catch - it is T536Li XP - my bad! Old post amended with correct model number.

Addenda: On thinking about this a bit over the second cup of mud this morning, with electric saws particularly, I hope manufacturers don’t follow the same path as seems to be going on with framing/ carpentry tools. In the old days the Sears or Porter Cable tools you got at a pro tool shop etc were bomber. Now it seems you can have what looks like the same tool but one is made for casual use rather than made for folks who do work for a living. DeWalt comes to mind from some stuff on Youtube but I’m sure most of the brands do the same now (Boeing??). I hope where we’re going isn’t going to be a place where everything is a watered down, disposable version of something, driven by accountants and spreadsheets. I’d like to see more of an approach to manufacturing maybe like Miele (european) where stuff can be fixed and it lasts.
 
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ghostice said:
The 535i your talking about is 2yrs old? I thought that one just came out & the 536li was the older one..

Good catch - it is T536Li XP - my bad! Old post amended with correct model number.

Addenda: On thinking about this a bit over the second cup of mud this morning, with electric saws particularly, I hope manufacturers don’t follow the same path as seems to be going on with framing/ carpentry tools. In the old days the Sears or Porter Cable tools you got at a pro tool shop etc were bomber. Now it seems you can have what looks like the same tool but one is made for casual use rather than made for folks who do work for a living. DeWalt comes to mind from some stuff on Youtube but I’m sure most of the brands do the same now (Boeing??). I hope where we’re going isn’t going to be a place where everything is a watered down, disposable version of something, driven by accountants and spreadsheets. I’d like to see more of an approach to manufacturing maybe like Miele (european) where stuff can be fixed and it lasts.
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Dang.. was hoping you had some infos..

I'm right there with on that Addendum.. That's one of my biggest beefs with manufacturers from any industry.. I got a set of couches that are 30 years old. Yeah i need to retire them, however, i know people with the same living habits as me & they've owned 5 sets in a 20yr timeline, they've bought cheap & they've bought brand name too.. the shit just falls apart because the standards have dropped across the board.... Everything's disposable now expensive or not...

I find it rather ironic an echo saw shows up in the very next post... The first time i considered something disposable myself, was when i bought my first echo top handle years ago...



climbstihl said:
View attachment 62796
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Woah now.. Look at that little echo go!! She's all blinged out with a shiny light weight bar..

Looks like a sugi or tsumara resin filled bar..

Just a prediction here based on my experience in general with Echo..
I bet they went with race car looks & then cheap out on the batteries.. I hope not & would like to be wrong, I'm just a cynical bastard when it comes to echo (as you can read above).. It does "look" pretty frigging legit though, i will give it that much!
 
ghostice said:
everything is a watered down, disposable version of something, driven by accountants and spreadsheets.
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Well this turned out super long, so I'll preface it with a

SUMMARY:

he vast majority of customers who buy new (manufacturers don't make money off ones who buy used) want to buy something and use it until they have to fix it or until the next new thing comes out. We can't sell them something if we don't keep up with the competition. Which means more features for the same price, which means cutting costs everywhere we can... And that's driven by what the customer wants not by accountants trying to line the company coffers. I know that happens too, but it's not that simple.

The only way the system will change to focus on rebuildable long life products is if the customers make them believe that's what they want. But it has to come with some cost too.


LONG WINDED VERSION:

I can't speak for every industry, but I work in the r&d design field for an equipment manufacturer.

Not speaking of discount level stuff (their entire market strategy is to be flashy and cheap, so it doesn't really apply to this conversation), I find it's not accountants and spreadsheets that drive our design decisions, but marketing, sales, and our own research, from surveys with dealers and customers, as well as the competition.

We all know and love capitalism which is self regulating, but it all is regulated by the purchasers. And right now there are a few prevailing sensibilities. And while lots of people bemoan that things aren't built the way they used to be, people still want new style, tech, and features at a competitive price. Technology has really shifted people's way of seeing things. Tech dates things so fast now, and it's really driven a big shift in all industries away from the buy and keep forever mindset. In addition, that same tech drives products that are more difficult to repair. And to get maximum tech in the cheapest prices, you have to make sacrifices somewhere. In the end,if the vast majority of customers are looking for something to buy, use, and get rid of, then putting money into making things rebuildable means not catering to the largest group of customers.

For example, phones are getting harder and harder to repair, because the market is driven to slimmer, lighter, faster, etc. You can't have a removable battery because that adds connections, a case around the battery cell, and enclosing the battery compartment and a battery door.

Power tools need to be as light as possible but still very impact resistant and with the most efficient and powerful motors. Oh yeah and you have to keep adding those features to them without raising the price.

Want to introduce new plastic parts? The cheapest injection molding tooling we've bought was around $15k and it wasn't very complex, and didn't produce a high volume of parts.

Not to mention r&d costs themselves. Let's say a product team has 5 engineers and 3 techs, that's half a million dollars a year in employees alone, not to mention that a single CAD seat can cost $10k-40k a year depending on what you use. A single prototype of a product that we sell for $5k to $10k can cost us $50-$100k depending on what we can reuse from other products or buy off the shelf and adapt. A pulley that costs $5-10 each once it's mass produced might cost $100 each if we are special ordering 10 of them.



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treebing said:
That small echo gas powered top handled beats the snot out of the stihl 150
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Which one is that? The 2511, the super duper light one? & Your comparing it to the Stihl 150? Is the 150 a pro-grade saw or a garden variety homeowner version? Maybe there is reason for this experience? Yeah? No?

My distain for Echo has always been based around their power to weight & the disposable reputation I've been forced to experience. Saws not running directly out of the box, things breaking within the first few months, etc..

If i swallow they're recent marketing whole, it seems as if they are making an effort to push into the pro-grade market, whether the saws & internals have actually changed, idk..

They do have a new big blower I'm dying to try because of the way it's been marketed, but i can't tell if it translates into actual usable power compared to it's tried & true competition. In a controlled test, it blows them away.
 
treebing said:
Thanks for your perspective, maybe you have mentioned it before but what is your background and experience? Thanks again
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I'm an engineering manager in new product development, on the R&D and testing side of things (work with the designers, but not a CAD monkey myself). I've had to cover operations for a few years, but was still involved with development during that time, just more hands off. Before that I worked for the same company doing industrial automation and manufacturing engineering.

I can't really talk specific details about my work in a public forum like this, but we build equipment used outdoors which is used by both professional and residential consumers in North America, Europe, and Australia.

Experience wise I've been in a leadership position for 3 product launches.



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 
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Joeybagodonuts said:
Which one is that? The 2511, the super duper light one? & Your comparing it to the Stihl 150? Is the 150 a pro-grade saw or a garden variety homeowner version? Maybe there is reason for this experience? Yeah? No?

My distain for Echo has always been based around their power to weight & the disposable reputation I've been forced to experience. Saws not running directly out of the box, things breaking within the first few months, etc..

If i swallow they're recent marketing whole, it seems as if they are making an effort to push into the pro-grade market, whether the saws & internals have actually changed, idk..

They do have a new big blower I'm dying to try because of the way it's been marketed, but i can't tell if it translates into actual usable power compared to it's tried & true competition. In a controlled test, it blows them away.
Click to expand...
But you're wise to be skeptical of controlled testing in advertisements and demos.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 
Joeybagodonuts said:
Which one is that? The 2511, the super duper light one? & Your comparing it to the Stihl 150? Is the 150 a pro-grade saw or a garden variety homeowner version? Maybe there is reason for this experience? Yeah? No?

My distain for Echo has always been based around their power to weight & the disposable reputation I've been forced to experience. Saws not running directly out of the box, things breaking within the first few months, etc..

If i swallow they're recent marketing whole, it seems as if they are making an effort to push into the pro-grade market, whether the saws & internals have actually changed, idk..

They do have a new big blower I'm dying to try because of the way it's been marketed, but i can't tell if it translates into actual usable power compared to it's tried & true competition. In a controlled test, it blows them away.
Click to expand...
Buy from an echo dealer and if it don't work out the box or breaks within the first five years, your covered dude. Not much risk to try there new stuff now. I never cared for them till I got my first cs355t a few years ago. Now I'm getting the 2511 Ina CPL weeks for sure.
Edit- I got a echo dealer a few miles down the road so that played a big part in me giving echo a chance.
 
I'd like to see another saw manufacturer stand to to toe with the big guys. I used to have a lot of respect for echo top handles (gassers) but less after I went through a couple of them. I hope the battery powered ones are awesome....even though I'm still hoping milwuakee decides to make a good one.
 
The biggest pro I have and hear about echo saws is that they start the easiest. Which is another reason why Im gonna give one of any brand battery saw a chance on my next purchase.
 
Hopefully a hungry competitor will design an electric trimsaw for the pro market soon.

I want a trimsaw I can attach and detach from my saddle with one hand, upside down, in the dark, securely.

The same check lever that allows trigger activation, can be designed to also allow opening or closing of a saddle attachment clip, integral to the saw, right outta the box.

Every climb saw made today seems to have cheesy little wire attachment clips....

Jemco
 
What are you using currently? Its a problem that I don't think has crossed my mind to much. I like the shembiner as well as Buckingham has a new saw hook that make for very easy one handed blind attachment and detachment. Its a solution of the saddle rather than the saw I think.
 
I really like the little grey loop on the back of the Husky top handles for clipping a saw onto a RE Transporter. If you wanted to, I suppose, you could dab epoxy on this so it doesn’t flip back or forward but I just use mine stock. I think the Transporter is the best clip I’ve had so far on any work or alpine saddle I’ve used. Even for clippin’ ice screws.
 
treebing said:
What are you using currently? Its a problem that I don't think has crossed my mind to much. I like the shembiner as well as Buckingham has a new saw hook that make for very easy one handed blind attachment and detachment. Its a solution of the saddle rather than the saw I think.
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I've been using old school ropeclips mounted as rigidly as possible to my MS200T's flimsy little wireclip.

And it does allow me to attach or detach from my saddle ring or D onehanded. But not as easily as I'd like to.

One thing about usin electric over gas, I can't hang my saw in the tree anymore usin the starter cord n rope clip!

Gotta break out a speedline loop n biner now.

Jemcoimage.webp
 
Mowerr said:
Buy from an echo dealer and if it don't work out the box or breaks within the first five years, your covered dude. Not much risk to try there new stuff now. I never cared for them till I got my first cs355t a few years ago. Now I'm getting the 2511 Ina CPL weeks for sure.
Edit- I got a echo dealer a few miles down the road so that played a big part in me giving echo a chance.
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I don't think we have one around here other than big box stores... My distain goes way beyond a matter of fixing or warranty. It's is more so that they just suck from every angle I've experienced..
Weight-Boat anchor

Power-Anemic

Durability-broken in a week or less, recoils constantly exploding, cord constantly snapping (this particular list could go on forever)

Reliability- won't run out of box, won't stay idling, either way to Rich or way to Lean with no way to really adjust it without removing tamper plugs.

Mowerr said:
The biggest pro I have and hear about echo saws is that they start the easiest. Which is another reason why Im gonna give one of any brand battery saw a chance on my next purchase.
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On top of what I mentioned above, this was the single biggest complaint everyone else around me had, the dang things would never start for them.. it was always a mad pulling contest to get it to start... & id imagine half of that time the damn things were ending up flooded.

Needless to say, all these issues went away the second a pro-grade top handle was purchased..

Weird how the two of us can have such polar opposite experiences..

I will admit though, that 2511 is something I'd consider trying, just because of the puported weight, id most likley have it ported to bypass the power caveat & then just suck up the durability issues i have with them. A niche saw so to say..
 
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