Lightning Protection in tree w cables and braces

Friendlytree

Friendlytree

Location
Bangor, PA
Now I know to tie in the cables into the lightning protection but my question is what about the brace rods in the tree? Should they be tied in? And if so how? What would happen to a tree with rods in it and LP if hit by lightning? I was thinking about this today and I have never read or seen anything about brace rods in trees with lightning protection or a tree with rods that was hit by lightning.
 
Interesting. I did maybe a half dozen systems this year, some in trees with up to 5 aerials and multiple cables and didn't run into this. Be curious to see what people would say. My inclination would be to not worry about it? Unless the rod was placed high in the tree?
 
I agree with Jeff. I would think because brace are so low in the tree that it wouldn't be an issue but, my guess is is if you were going to tie a brace rod into a lighting protection system you would do it pretty much the same way as you would a cable.
 
do these lighting systems really work or are they just to make money ? i have seen trees with these systems that still suffered damage and death from lighting . what do you guys think ?
 
I'm no expert but I believe there are devices you can install in the system at ground level that will actually tell you if the tree has been struck or not. I don't think it will tell you how many times though. I've only heard of this, never seen it. Anybody smarter know what I'm thinking of?
 
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do these lighting systems really work or are they just to make money ? i have seen trees with these systems that still suffered damage and death from lighting . what do you guys think ?

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ANSI and NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) wouldn't have published standards for performing the work if it was just snake-oil.
 
I can't speak to anyone else's business model, but profit is one of those little things that motivate me to leave my home every day and drive to someone else's to help them manage their trees.

If you're doing tree work and not turning a profit....there are much safer non-profit endeavors with which to while away the days.
 
i am not against making profit . profit is a great thing for all of us . i just want to know by facts that what i am doing has a propose other then profit . i want to feel confident that i am actually helping the trees that we love so much . i am not against lighting systems just asking questions about them . there are many installed in a wealthy town next to mine . some of these systems look like they may have been installed awhile back . i have just never seen a tree stuck by lighting with or without these systems that have not been affected . just asking santa hold down your raindeers !
 
ISA and ANSI are against practices like topping and lions tailing, but do support and have standards for lightning protection. If lightning protection was installed without adhering to the standards, then it's not lightning protection.. it's just a bunch of shiny stuff hung in a tree.

That's why ANSI publishes standards and ISA publishes Best Management Practices for worthwhile arboricultural practices, so that legitimate work can be done properly, to standards that will add value to the trees under our care.
 
You can purchase the ISA best management practices, (which are like a readers digest version of the ANSI standards) and the actual ANSI standards themselves through the ISA at:

http://secure.isa-arbor.com/webstore/Search.aspx?k=ansi%20standard

They're great sales reference tools as well. If a client has a question, it's always great to be able to crack open an industry standard booklet and show they why it's supposed to be done this way. Also saves your bacon by making sure that your work is supported by documents showing that you work to those standards. They're all well worth reading. Great tools for your mental toolbox!
 
well you still did not answer my question . i still think these systems are a waste of time and money . because i have seen lots of trees with these systems struck by lighting and the trees suffered and died so what was the point of these so called lightning protection systems ? huge lightning stress cracks and scars all the way down the tree . if someone else has had success please let us know . i am getting ready to remove a very large oak in this situation .
 
Can you verify the systems were installed correctly? Can you locate the ground rod and verify its sufficient distance from the trunk and set deep enough? Were the aerials set high enough, and spaced appropriately to provide adequate coverage? 35' radius of coverage assumed per aerial. Confirm the installation was to standard in these trees. Id be curious myself.
 
If your question is "What do you feel is the proper way to do lightning protection?" I'd say, buy the BMP and the ANSI Standards and read em' for yourself. There's a bit more to the topic than can be (or should be) covered in a text response in a chat forum. If you can't be troubled to read up on the topic yourself....there's your sign. (ho ho ho)
 
Hi my mane is Ben and apart from being a timber faller I install lightning protection systems in tree.
The question asked is highly pertinant. In order to deal with it we must first understand why we bond to steel support cables. There exists a phenomenom called potential electrical diference. It works like this. The electrrical energy flows down the conductor raising its electrical potential. This in turn raises the electrical potential in the steel suport system but not to the same extent. Potential electrical diference, where we have such a diference the two will look to equalise. A flow of electrical energy from the greater to the lesser. This must be eliminated by the prosses of bonding the two components together, no diference no flow. So steel cable or steel rod makes no odds the result would be the same regardless of location in the tree. Also we must consider the electrolitic reaction between the copper conductor and the steel brace. Noble metals and all that. If we do not then the support system and conductor will corrode very rapidly result system failier. Should you find this interesting then please feel free to contact me on or off line. my web site www.arborbolt.co.uk is dedicated to lightning protection and trees. there you will find papers and stuff. should this be considered inapropriat advertising on the Buzz then I appolagise. PS ANSI A300 PART 4 is not very good

Best regards Ben
 
Ben old bean,I agree that any metal should be bonded, and ANSI and the BMPs also agree. Your post seems plenty non-commercial to me.
Not sure what you find lacking in the ANSI. If you think they should make a greater recognition of predrilling and sanctioning extendable fasteners, then let them know (attached)

One study pointed to 97%+ effectiveness. I wish I could say that systems I install are 100% but lightning is too dodgy for that kind of boast.

Richard's right--pay $8 for the BMPs, if the op's interest is more than idle curiosity. or you can check the archives here.
 

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thank you benfuest ! the systems i looked at and saw really look nothing like the ones on you site . i would like to contact you sometime and learn more . i already ordered isa safe management book should be here soon . i could tell that it was copper wire that ran into the ground from the top of the tree (wires all green) . hard to describe where the wire ran into the tree up in the crown .( did not climb it ) it is possible that these systems could be old and outdated . these are some old trees here . some of the wire the tree has engolfed . it looks like these systems require you to put some of it into the tree all over . would not think that would be good , would it ? thank you for your post look forward to learning more from you .
 
hey santa guy ! just here to ask questions and learn .that is why we are all here right ? you seem like you favor these systems so i thought you could give us your take on it . i am ok with long threads . i am here to read and learn and i hope to spread what i know to you all . we all love trees so lets keep learning from one another by asking questions . mean no disrespect . peace
 
Hallo and thanks for the replys. While Ansi and BMP identify with potential electrical diference, in the context of support systems they do no believe fasteners are subject to the same laws of physics. The standards were re worked and distance between old fasteners and new was reduced in the hope this would do. It is not the recognition for my product I seek it is the recognition of correct science as was first established in 1752. Arborbolt was sanctioned by both Ansi and BMP in 2007 even gets a mension in second edition.
The study you refer to relating the effectiveness of systems at 97% was British and applies to European systems NOT the American. Please note this is not a dig, just that we must be careful where we apply. When Cerviarborist comented on the BMP and Ansi as great sales reference tools, he was right. they are and thats the problem. This is where science and comercial endevor colide. The technolagy I promote is with out doupt more expensive, I am not suggesting a cheep solution to an age old issue. I think/hope we would all agree drilling hole in trees on a willy nilly bassis would be wrong. Should a client wish to install such hardware in tree then it is up to us to educate them so that they may make a more informed disision as to procede or not, thats worth paying for. sound like I am preaching now and thats NOT my intention. I have worke and traveled extensively in the USA and love it great times great people. On a lighter note Just a tree guy is right question it question me. I like the quote. "The minde, like a parachute works best when open"
Cheers Ben
 
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