ISA Cetified Arborist Agreement

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Perhaps, rather than starting another industry association we could see if we can find a good contingency lawyer and file a class action suit...
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I agree.

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Me too. I think Mr. Wood's take on this is spot on.
 
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"Just like a liar is a theif and a theif is a liar. Someone with a recent criminal record is likely going to be performing incorrect tree care and poor business practices (ripping people off)."


It strikes me that if someone is cooking/ selling meth and committing armed robbery, they are going to be much more likely to try to rip people off than the average person.

I would not say that a person with a recent criminal record, generally speaking, "is likely going to be performing incorrect tree care and poor business practices".

I think that many business owners lament having to bail an employee out or have someone absent due to arrest. Some of these same people do good, proper work while on the jobsite.

I know that I have had this problem a few times. One guy that was a super hard worker said he needed to work harder to "maintain", which I took to mean maintain his drinking at a reasonable level, that doesn't lead to erratic behavior, and police involvement.

Part of his arrest record was about 60 Driving while on a suspended license violations. In WA state, if you get behind on child support, you lose you license. A very good governmental system that makes it easier to get caught up on payments--take away a person's transportation to work--Great!


Thankfully, I have two very dependable employees, now.
 
I was a member of another professional association that also had a very strict agreement. This also included bankruptcy. With the explanations requirement it provided the opportunity for them to assess the relevance of the infractions to the work. There were plenty of members with "records" that continued to practice the trade.

What might also be driving this is liability issues for the ISA as the certifying body. If an arborist is hired because they are a CA and things go really south, could there be liability for the ISA??

Definitely the wording is vague to the extent that it doesn't limit the time period but I don't think they want it open enough that applicants can decide what is relevant and what is not. Also, in some ways there are business related issues that may not be within the scope of the ISA though of equal concern for the industry.

At the end of the day, this is a voluntary membership. In no way is it a requirement for conducting tree work. If we don't like it we can opt out.

IMHO, this really is a document that should have involved all the members in deciding its scope and structure.
 
This doesn't really sit right with me. I'd like to think there are people out there who have made bad decisions but are genuinely trying to turn thier lives around. I can only assume that this agreement would seem like another closed door for them. Like it or not this industry is not very picky in terms of workers- a lot of our jobs are fairly accesible even if you were a criminal! Who is going to deny a person dragging brush?!? And didn't a lot of us start out that way? It's not like a record is going to help you get a job teaching in a school...

I realize it's voluntary, but being certified sure helped with my wages. Not signing/not getting certified will keep a lot of people grunts longer, and lots of unscrupolous owners richer.

I'll sign it, but I think the ISA is overeaching. In an industry that tends to have problems finding good workers this may be a step backwards.
 
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I'll sign it, but I think the ISA is overeaching. In an industry that tends to have problems finding good workers this may be a step backwards.

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I agree totally.
 
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I talked with an attorney who makes a lovely living defending professionals who have their certifications compromised from authorities. I asked her, in general terms, if the ISA was setting themselves for trouble. She said that if the legal issues weren't related to what the certification was for it would be an easy money maker for her. The conversation wasn't meant as legal advice...but...just sayin'...

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I got an email at my personal account from someone today to discuss this issue. I hit the wrong key and deleted the email...would you write back to me again?
 
How secure does the ISA intend to keep this personal information, and HOW?

How capable are the ISA at securing confidential info?

Since it is apparent that the ISA can change policy with little to no consultation with it's membership and accreditation holders, how do we determine that the ISA will maintain confidentiality in perpetuity?

Or is part of this data harvest intended to make it possible for employers to check up on the background of potential employess, upon payment of a fee, of course?

And who would I ask?


Northwind
 
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I believe the reason he became a certified arborst was so that he could prove that anyone can pass the test and become a certified arborist and perhaps now that he is one, he won't get flack from his poor practices and what he says might carry more weight.

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Just about it in a nut shell, it's all about the green backs. You have your cake whinners now eat it.
 
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At the end of the day, this is a voluntary membership. In no way is it a requirement for conducting tree work.

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Not entirely, for some of us, treehumper.

Municipally issued permits to prune certain species to spec here state "All climbing and pruning to by performed by an ISA Certified Arborist..."

So while there are species here that do not require permits to prune/remove, permitted work is a significant chunk of the business that can't be walked away from and a non-certified climber becomes a scheduling problem for the employer.

That said, I've got no problem with the wording of the permits, I think it's a good thing. Just saying that my certification, while technically voluntary, it is one tool that I can't leave out of the box...

Northwind
 
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How secure does the ISA intend to keep this personal information, and HOW?

How capable are the ISA at securing confidential info?

Since it is apparent that the ISA can change policy with little to no consultation with it's membership and accreditation holders, how do we determine that the ISA will maintain confidentiality in perpetuity?

Or is part of this data harvest intended to make it possible for employers to check up on the background of potential employess, upon payment of a fee, of course?

And who would I ask?


Northwind

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You are hitting on all of the crucial points here, NW.

The potential for future abuse of these disclosures is almost limitless. I have no idea, nor do they, of just how they plan on keeping this info confidential. How would someone 'un-learn' something about someone once they've served their term on the Ethics Committee? The fact is, they can't, and they would carry that info with them into future endeavors, which could affect their decision making down the line.

The ISA can change policy without membership's vote, and they very cleverly state it in the bylaws. It's stated so vaguely it would make David Copperfield blush. So, yes, they could potentially change policy AGAIN, and share the info without your vote or consent.

I am pretty sure that the ISA doesn't want to share the information with the public as you suggest, this is more of CYA for them to maintain ISO certification. Derek Vannice is the person to ask, but I'm sure he's got a boilerplate answer for you all set up.

-Tom
 
I still don't have a problem with ISA's concept and desire to be able to ensure a certain ethical standard for those they grant accreditation.

I think the biggest/only problem I have is the demand by the ISA that I disclose all Complaints filed against me. That in my mind is total BS.

Complaints are accusations nothing more. They are not facts, findings or conclusions.

Convictions, judgments and rulings on the other hand are not only relevant to the ethical question but give good insight into it.

I am happy to disclose and report those but flat out refuse to disclose any closed, dismissed or withdrawn complaints.

I'm a firm believer in contract law and following contracts to the letter. Since their contract is very specific in its broad scope I am forced to reject that contract out of hand, regardless of how much I can agree with the rest of it. Once it is singed, I agree to it en-toto.

So, I'm not opposed at all to looking into a class action on this. I have no idea how to do that but if anyone has any ideas or a good atty willing to check into it pro bono or on contingency I'd be willing to discuss it.

It wouldn't be too difficult to argue that the "complaint" component of the agreement is is too broad, onerous, costly and irrelevant to the issue of ethics. I think the case would be easy to make to have that clause declared unenforceable.

Just to be fair though, I don't think the rest of the agreement could be successfully argued against in front of a judge.

Like most of us I have worked hard to maintain my credentials and project a positive image of arborists to the customer and had hoped to take the next leap to earn my BCMA. But with this Holy Writ from Upon High I dunno....
Anyhow just my two pennies.
 
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Just about it in a nut shell, it's all about the green backs. You have your cake whinners now eat it.

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Holly, stay out of this subject. You have no dog in this fight other than to say "I told you so," which, actually, you really didn't. So please, for the sake of us ISA CA's discussing an issue that pertains to us, not you, save it. Thanks, big fella.
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-Tom
 
Just wondering if anyone else has emailed the ISA regarding these new policies?If so what kind of responses have you received?
 
The impression Vannice gave me was his way OR the Highway. A few people I spoke with when this issue arose the first time seem to brush it off, NOW they say it is too late to ask questions. Apathy in my book!

As this policy was spawned by ISA wanting to be ISO accredited (for the lack of the proper word) and the inter-relationship with the ANSI standards, a person living outside the USA and wanting to stay with the ISA will either have to put up or go away!
 
I guess they figure the isa membership is made up of a bunch of sheep with no voices,Who perceive they will not be successful without a CA.Guys who are scared of getting there pocket book depleted will sign anything or at least thats the perception the ISA has of its CAs
 
A friend/co-worker of mine who is a BCMA wrote an email, a strongly worded email, questioning the motives of the new policies, and sent it to our chapter (I think) and they forwarded it to Derek Vannice...

Anyway, he received a response from Derek marked as confidential which defended the new policies, claiming that ANSI standards required conduct rules, and that such rules serves significant organizational, public protection and professional purposes...and much much more. Naturally I only got the sum gist of it all, but it definitely was not presented as something still open to discussion.

I will get around to writing my protest of this extremely disturbing and invasive new requirement at some point, and will probably do as he did, send it to my chapters, and also to the various heads at the ISA.
 
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made up of a bunch of sheep with no voices,Who perceive they will not be successful without a CA

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hhhmmmmmmm. Find it hard to belive that a volly group thinks they have the power. You all created this beast, now how will you bed with it.
 
Again, not that I am the least but excited about the agreement, but the ISA does "Own" the credential and they can pretty much require anything they want before they grant it. Very much like any degree from any college.

After all we don't have to "buy" the product they are selling, even if it is the only one available.

That said, any radical changes to the program, such as this, often carry a grandfather type clause for those already carrying the credential.

Dunno.

I'll be having my legal-beagle look it over in the next few weeks and I suspect that he will find certain parts unenforceable, which simply means that I can probably still sign it in good faith and not worry about the unenforceable parts.

The question becomes, if challenged are such parts severable from the whole or would it invalidate the whole. That becomes a unique question.

All I know is that if I sign it, I will not be able to give the kind of disclosure they are looking for without great expense or undue hardship and therefore will be in breach from the get-go.
 
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