I'm stumped by an oak

Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

Just a few thoughts/points.

1) Blinky, trees don't heal!
2)What kind of oak are we looking at here? From the pictures I would venture to say it is a bur oak (Quercus macrocarpa). Which from experience with that species here is VERY strong. Very little damage in an extreme ice storm here in `03.
3) Could that "pipe bowl" on the branch have been caused when that large limb broke out of the top. Hit the limb on the way down?
4) The picture of the whole tree shows the house directly behind the tree and a driveway in front of the tree. What is the condition of the root system of this tree? It likely has been impacted when the house was built. yeah be concerned about the upper trunk/branch failure, but what about the potential for whole tree failure? Any Ganoderma or other root rot pathogens present?
5)People do get killed by falling trees/tree parts while in the house. Granted it does not happen often but it does happen. I remember hearing about cases at a "Trees, People and the Law" seminar I attended.

Getting a second independent inspection from another Consulting Arborist(RCA) or seasoned Certified Arborist is a good idea. Two heads are better than one, right?
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

We were also wondering when the house was built in relation to the tree. It appears that the tree is in a courtyard with 3 sides of the root ball potentially impacted by the construction. As you know, with trees it is very seldom one thing...it is the whole picture that determines the outcome and decision. And also as you know, it can take a long time for some stressors to start showing up.

We have already suggested getting another onsite arborist to collaborate. Even the best pictures just simply do not tell the whole story. There is always something you can miss. Heck, you can miss it standing right there. As has been said, trees will fool the best observations. There are some trees standing that simply baffle you. However, it is ultimately the homeowner's decision and what they are comfortable with. It is the arborist's duty to point out the facts of the situation.

Speaking of pics. How do we post pics without messing up the thread? We have some pics of the target canker on silver maples but are unsure if this site will accept the size without resizing them (which we for some reason have not been successful without turning them into postage size pics that noone can see). The pics are approximately 855 KB. Will that work here?

D and S Mc
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

[ QUOTE ]
Just a few thoughts/points.

1) Blinky, trees don't heal!
[...]

[/ QUOTE ]

Your thinking's a little too concrete...
Trees don't regenerate tissue... but when wound wood, callous, undifferentiated tissue, whatever... forms over a damaged area, that's healing. Compartmentalization is a healing process. I used the word in a tree context... I wasn't talking about animal tissue.

The callous building around the canker or strike wound is nicely formed.... does that suit you better?
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

I agree w/ dhuffenmu looks to me the branch that came down wishboned on that crotch and sat there a year or two before it came down.
So now waht,I agree on the debate to save or remove, gotta look hard at it, disclose everything you've concluded, including what you dont know for shure, give them some numbers they can apreciate, then leave it in there lap.

Questions, How long did they live there for, if my guess is right the wound 2ys collar growth 6-10ys, if they din'nt live there wich one of the neighbors did and do they remember.
Any way if it was my tree, I'd probly keep it for a while. work on it abit and watch, but since its there problem, looks like a fun removal,with some nice saw logs,too boot.
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

[ QUOTE ]
it is ultimately the homeowner's decision and what they are comfortable with. It is the arborist's duty to point out the facts of the situation.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, absolutely. Well put. Objectively, without the urge to rev the saw or to hug the tree to death.

Sounds like the tree consultation is being handled well.

cool.gif
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

I would recommend removing the tree. The tree with it's faults are in the wrong location in regards to the location of the house. I do not like to remove any tree but for every "one" removed from a location there should be new "ones" planted.
In regards to the arborist duty to point out the facts of the situation. If they do only what the homeowner wants knowing that there's a hazard and then somthing were to happen the arborist's would be responsible. Your the professional that worked on the tree and the liabilaty lies in your lap not the homeowners.
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

Offer them the options to prune (i.e. reduction, bracing, etc) or to remove. Let them see the different monetary costs, and then let them decide how much risk they want to live with.

[ QUOTE ]

In regards to the arborist duty to point out the facts of the situation. If they do only what the homeowner wants knowing that there's a hazard and then somthing were to happen the arborist's would be responsible. Your the professional that worked on the tree and the liabilaty lies in your lap not the homeowners.

[/ QUOTE ]

The best you're going to be able to do with a "risk assessment" on a tree like that, would be an educated guess. I think placing the blame on the arborist when/if the tree were to fall on the house, is unreasonable. The customer (property owner) makes the ultimate decision of the tree's fate. I consider it my job, to give customers information and feasible options, so that they can make better choices in regards to their property.
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

[ QUOTE ]
What can anyone tell me about these "pipebowl" shaped things (see pics)? Could it lead to decay that might weaken this limb?

[/ QUOTE ]
As some others have said, it does look like a perennial canker that came in after some wound. You can tell if there are concentric rings of callous tissue in the dead area. It already has weakened the limb somehat, though it might not be enough to cause it to blow out. Can't judge that from a picture, and often you can't really know for sure when it's right in front of your face. I'm not going to give you recommendations about what to do with the tree from afar, I will echo that you need to give the homeowners all of the information you can gather in order to help them make a more informed decision. And you learning from this will help you with difficult situations like it in the future. Good luck.
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

I'm not the one blaming the arborist. I read an artical about 5 years ago where a tree com. was sued because they did not remove a hazard even though the homeowner did not want it removed. The tree I'm talking about was a sound tree, the homeowner only wanted the dead and conflicting growth removed(perfect wish they all were like that). The tree had a canopy the came within feet of the ground and one of the branches blocked the view of a stop sign. The tree com. informed the client of this but they liked the tree the weigh it was. A car ran the stop sign later that year and successfully sued the tree com. because they were the last professionals to work on the tree and did not remove the hazard even though the homeowner did not want it removed. The courts deemed the professionals responsable, saying that if they were not removing the hazard also they should not have taken the job and by doing only what the home owner wanted and not the hazard they assume the liability. Pretty Sh!ty I know but thats what the courts said???
confused.gif
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What can anyone tell me about these "pipebowl" shaped things (see pics)? Could it lead to decay that might weaken this limb?

[/ QUOTE ]
As some others have said, it does look like a perennial canker that came in after some wound. You can tell if there are concentric rings of callous tissue in the dead area. It already has weakened the limb somehat, though it might not be enough to cause it to blow out. Can't judge that from a picture, and often you can't really know for sure when it's right in front of your face. I'm not going to give you recommendations about what to do with the tree from afar, I will echo that you need to give the homeowners all of the information you can gather in order to help them make a more informed decision. And you learning from this will help you with difficult situations like it in the future. Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

....yep
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

Thats an enlightening story, Dave. Thanks for sharing it. I'll definitely ask our lawyer about how we should approach issues like that.

I still think its unreasonable to blame the arborist. (NOT saying that you are) What if that company hadn't taken the job? Would the previous company to work at the property be liable? Where does the buck stop? People are WAY too apt to blame someone else for their own shortcomings.
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

The tree has damage making it more of a liability,not to the arborist but the HO. This shall be stated in any bid,and in writing. Highangel assumes work w/neglect has been done,but so far not the case. Just cause you looked at it and want to save it dose NOT make you lible,unless you neglect to mention it, ie say the tree is fine just needs canopy reduction. Stating the damage and potental for future failure leaves you off the hook as a judge would see it, but dose not exempt you from civil ltigation.
I'll be real dareing now ALL trees have potential to cause damage,...MB
Looks like the tree is older than the house,root damage yep,AIMEx white oaks dont show for a decade, or so.
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

I spoke briefly to our lawyer today, regarding the case you mentioned earlier, Dave. His thought, was that there was more to that case than what we are aware of. He said that third parties are usually not awarded successful in suing contractors in an instance such as you mentioned.

Regarding future jobs where a problem/liability is anticipated, he said to put it all in writing. Make sure your contract says "No warranty" and make sure the customer is aware if the liability.
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

Thanks again to everyone. Your collective advice to get more specific data about this tree's condition (from roots, to decay around wound, to general history) is good. However in this case I have made my decision with the information I have and if the clients would like more evidence of decay I will be happy to bore and come up with some numbers. For me the issue is whether this wound, above which a very heavy tree top balances over a family of at least 5, will get better (by throwing on more wound wood, which adds some strength) or worse (decay). Sure it will both decay some in the center and throw on wound wood on the outside, but which will it do faster? If this tree didn't have these targets I might recommend some mitigation work and hope for the best, but there's too much to wager here. It's a great old tree, but it's not worth anyone's life. Even if nobody were home in the case that it would fail, I'm not sure if it's worth the damage it would cause to the house. Because of the targets I'm going to assume the worst, that the decay would advance and this point in the tree would become weaker over time. Sure this could be decades, but I'm not willing to assign a time-line to this tree's demise. We had 2 or 3 tornados come through this area last summer/fall, and even where there was no touchdown, there were some rippin winds. I'm categorizing it as high risk and recommending removal. Sad removal but not worth the risk of keeping in this case. Thanks again. Alex
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

Let's remember: "it is ultimately the homeowner's decision and what they are comfortable with. It is the arborist's duty to point out the facts of the tree situation.

[ QUOTE ]
the issue is whether this wound, above which a very heavy tree top balances over a family of at least 5, will get better (by throwing on more wound wood, which adds some strength) or worse (decay). Sure it will both decay some in the center and throw on wound wood on the outside, but which will it do faster? ... ***I'm going to assume the worst***(at this donkey-u-me point, bro, reason flew out the window, and fear flew in.) that the decay would advance and this point in the tree would become weaker over time. Sure this could be decades, but I'm not willing to assign a time-line

[/ QUOTE ]I do not understand the leap in the logic here, or the lack of consideration that you give to mitigation. Wouldn't some work on the roots increase the chances of the woundwood winning the race with the rot? What happened to reduction?

As Buffalo Springfield said...

Paranoia strikes deep. omg the wind blew last summer--the tree must go!
For a while there, yours sounded like a rational approach.

This is the trap that arborists lay for themselves when they think that they must go beyond their competence. We can not judge what the owner's level of risk tolerance is, or ought to be. What makes us experts on their values?

We are NOT qualified to make recommendations on high-risk trees, only to objectively describe management options , and Let the Owner Decide!!!

You are still "stumped", so you told them to make a stump. A lot of good questions were asked here about the roots--what % of your assessment went to this 50% of the tree?

Just one opinion...
smile.gif
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

Thanks for feedback guymayor. It's definetly likely that doing root/soil work would be good for the tree's health. MAYBE this would speed up the growth of wound wood. Even if it did, this is not the part of the country where even healthy trees grow fast, and this tree doesn't have the growth rate of youth on its side. There are a lot of maybes here and I appreciate your desire to keep this tree around, but the key issue in this case is this tree's location. "Maybe" just isn't good enough with the targets in this situation. The fact is that there is a significant structural defect mid-trunk on a heavy tree over a family. This is all I will point out to the client. The decision is theirs to make. I am not judging their level of risk tolerance and I don't claim to be an expert on their values. As far as the question of being qualified to make recs on high-risk trees, there are thresholds at which action should be taken that are described in "Evaluating Tree Defects", from Ed Hayes. Ok, action could be mitigation and not removal, but the target dictates my decision. It's their choice, but I will tell them what the safest scenario would be. If they want to keep it, I will have some liability off my shoulders. Can anyone confidently say that the tree won't fail at this weakened point? If I could, I'd really be happy because I like that tree. The tornados around here are no fluke. I think it's reasonable to factor them into considerations of this tree's future since they are a regular annual occurance. If trees are going to be subjected to 100 mph winds I need to factor that in when considering a defect with a target like that. Alex
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

"When in doubt cut it out" and another oldie but goodie, "Don't think cut!"

That sort of thinking is what gives us the reputation many here have decried.

I would sit down with the client before doing or recommending anything. Let them know that you've identified several aspects of the tree that would require further investigation. What is their attitude toward this tree. Determine what they could budget toward it's assessment and ongoing management.

Once you've established their attitude then you can start to formulate a plan of action that takes into account this and their budget. Some people will go to great lengths to save a tree. I have had customers pay $1600 just for a definitive assessment before proceeding with any work on a tree. Another company was paid $8500+ to save an ancient Black Walnut on a heritage property. This was not a big estate either just a tree that generations of her family have enjoyed and come to love.

While we are the "experts", rushing to a conclusion that is the easy way out isn't necessarily the best for the tree, client or your business.

This tree certainly has the potential to continue on. What sort of remedies are needed, if any, needs to be determined by a detailed study of the issues. You can give them a price as to what that would cost with an explanation of the value derived from the expenditure.

Practice like a professional then you'll play like one...
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

Alex, I think your making the wright choice in this situation. I like other buzzers love trees and don't like to remove them unless their is a good reason such as this.

KentuckySawyer, PM me with any info on liability's such as this one.thanks

Arbordeo, lets look at this in a totaly different manor. You go to a break repair shop for new brakes. They inform you that you only have three of the five luggs on a tire. You tell them you only want the brakes repaired, they do as you request. you drive away after the repair is done, get down the road the tire falls off and you get into an accident. the repair shop is at fault. This won't happen though because they won't do the repairs if you don't want them to also repair the luggs. If you think not, just try it.

Sorry for getting so far off topic. Climb safe and have fun doing it.
 
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