I'm stumped by an oak

Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

It looks like the crown has plenty to work with for a reduction if that is what is decided; however, you need an onsite risk assessment not just feedback from the internet.

The canker looks very similar to, but not exactly like, several we see on old silver maples. Target cankers (Nectria). That might give you a start for some research.

Cable to what??

D and S Mc
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

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If it were me it would come down. I hate to cut those nice trees down but there are too many bad things that could happen that to me out weigh hoping they don't!

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Excellent post!
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

Look to what some of the research says about wood strength loss. Hazard Trees by Matheny - Clark is a good reference. The injury looks to me like a rubbing injury which is seldom associated with decay but could weaken the wood if the injury is larger than 1/3 of the circumferce. It could be a perennial canker that is some what associated with decay and wood strengh loss once advanced. Don't remove the tree. Replace it. That would be much better.
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

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Don't remove the tree. Replace it. That would be much better.

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WTF?
crazy.gif
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

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If it were me it would come down. I hate to cut those nice trees down but there are too many bad things that could happen that to me out weigh hoping they don't!

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Excellent post!

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Actually, it's not an excellent post. It is an opinion given without consideration of the full spectrum of information available.


The simplest and easiest thing to do is recommend removal, and believe it or not, Butch, there are millions of cowboys like you still out in the field proving their manhood by felling beautiful historic trees.

I can't wait till your generation of climbers kicks the bucket.
grin.gif



SZ
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

Thanks so far for feedback everyone. dhuffnmu, this tree is located in East Lansing, MI which is the south, central part of the state. DSMc, thanks for the tip on the possibility of nectria canker to explain those pipebowls. I need to do more research but from some digging online, I've learned that oaks are susceptible. I can't find pictures any other kind of cankers besides nectria that look like that, so it's definetly possible, maybe even likely to be nectria. From what I've read, whatever the cause of the canker, if it girdles enough of the diameter, the branch becomes structurally weakened and often branches break at point of canker in high winds. That's enough for me to think removal of that limb is better than cabling, bcs the canker has become so large. If the next limb up gets removed for the same reason, the tree will be limbed up so high that besides beginning to look silly, it will become a wind shear-susceptible lollypop with all of its branching in the upper third of its height and no lower branches to buffer and counter balance tree sway. This combined with the gaping wound up high is bringing me closer to recommending removal. I'm not jumping to conclusions before I research more and think about it for a few days before I write anything up. Thanks everyone. Any new ideas are welcome. Alex
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

Thats not very nice Stephan.........
Afer most major storms here, people get very reactive and cut down lots of perfect trees. I also see a lot of time bombs that people leave standing. Even some have had professional opinions, by certified arborists. I like to feel out the homeowners comfort level with a tree, If they are totally skeered, its up to them wether the removal happens. We can't really get advice on trees from the web.
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

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I can't wait till your generation of climbers kicks the bucket.
grin.gif

SZ

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Even with a
grin.gif
that's a twisted sentiment.
Phil
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

Stephan and Butch... knock it off you guys. I know a little bit about you both and you have more in common than you think.

About that oak...

The pipe bowl wound... I don't know, looks like an old rubbing wound or a bad strike but I imagine there are pathogens that could do something like that. It's on a lateral, it's healing nicely... I just can't say without seeing the situation first hand.

The big tear-out on the other hand is high on the stem. It looks as though bugs are starting to work on the decayed wood near the bottom but I can't say for sure. The wound wood doesn't look good down there.

I'm on the fence. My gut tells me to remove it because of the proximity to a high value target. It's not screaming at me to remove it though. The crown could handle some reduction and the lower limb sprawl could be pruned back. Aerating and inoculating the soil should probably accompany reduction.

I would probably recommend taking the damaged lateral because it appears to be right over the house; a big ice storm could drop it onto the roof. Cabling is an option but definitely non-invasive. If that limb is gonna stay it needs to keep building reaction wood and it doesn't need an additional entry for pathogens.

The tree IS compromised AND it's over the house. The wind screen around it appears to be pretty good so ice is the most likely danger. Were it not for that tear out, I would recommend keeping it... with the usual caveat that ALL trees are potentially hazardous. Big decay mid-stem though... tough call.
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

Only stupid people value a tree more than the lives of their children.
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

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The rule from every climber i ever met over 40 years old always told me when in doubt cut it out.

[/ QUOTE ]Well, 40 years ago Uncle Sam drafted me,
frown.gif
so I'm old enough to tell you a new rule to replace that utility mantra:

"When you don't know, let it grow."
wink.gif


Chip, that cankered branch is so heavy it needs steel, installed with wirestops to minimize wounding. You know about those--bought any yet?

Alex, you need to probe those areas to assess strength loss.

Steph, be nice. They don't have to die, just change, or retire.

Attached is a pic of a red oak with a codom tearout wound and 30' of crown above. You can se right throug the crack, and there are two other cracks at 90 degrees from it. I reduced it heavily, and the owner said the risk was acceptable, and signed off on it.

Next month I'll be cabling it to the tree behind to further lessen the risk of it failing onto the house. IT's the owner's decision, not mine. But mine would be the same, were it my house.
 

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Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

How many of you know of documented fatalities where the victime was in a house?

I am curious as I have not heard of one in all my years out here in the PNW. Close calls yes...injuries...rare but there....but fatalities?

The tree in question here has a lot of canopy up high and not much else. The buildings don't look too stout and are one story.

I think it comes down to the owners risk tolerance AND their budget. If the tree comes down plant a couple new ones and hope they survive to replace it.

My 2 cents. Scott
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

Personally, I've never seen a fatality from a tree on a house, but I know it happens and I've seen plenty of houses crushed under a log.

Huge trees next to houses taking a fools bet.
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

This is long, be patient and read it before you form opinions;
1. Have you the ability to get a unbiased second opinion from another experienced Certifed or professional Arborist? Take them with you to see the tree rather than showing pictures. (I don't think any of us are foolish enough to give firm answers to your question without seeing the beast first.)
2. What does the homeowners insurance company say? They might not provide coverage to the homeowner if they think the tree is unsafe/unsound.
I agree that there are alot of healthy trees being unnessarily removed as a result of knee-jerk reactions to news stories or storm related fears. Just from seeing the pictures you posted of the scars and flaws, the location of the tree to a target hazzard...and most importantly the fear of the homeowners that prompted the call to you. I would have to say this tree isn't the healthiest or soundest specimen. Based on what was presented to me here, I suggest that you should strongly consider removing this tree.
Now, think about this when you go back;
Would you be willing to let your family stay in that house with that tree next to it??
Can you afford a lawsuit(win or lose)for a wrongful death or for property damages from a failure or branch breakage from this tree? You, as a professional in your field of work, identified several serious flaws in this tree. Will the work you do to this tree eliminate the risk to the homeowner or property. If no, why not? Regardless of what thinning, cableing and bracing, those flaws still exist in that tree. You put a band aid on a tree that you considered, for all the right reasons removing but opted not to because it was a beautiful specimen. big mistake!
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

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2. What does the homeowners insurance company say? They might not provide coverage to the homeowner if they think the tree is unsafe/unsound...the scars and flaws, the location of the tree to a target hazzard...and most importantly the fear of the homeowners...
Can you afford a lawsuit(win or lose)for a wrongful death or for property damages from a failure... Will the work you do to this tree eliminate the risk... those flaws still exist in that tree. You put a band aid on a tree that you considered, for all the right reasons removing

[/ QUOTE ]Cool,

Insurance agents do not judge tree risk.

What is a target hazzard?

Running from liability in America is like running from air.

Risk can never be eliminated.

Pruning and support are not bandaids.

Your post posed 5+ false premises. It was extremely biased.

Scott's made sense; you can tell it was based a lot of experience and study. Night and day. Listen and learn.

"Huge trees next to houses taking a fools bet."

MB, call me a fool then, and you be da wise man, right? Attached are two the size of a 97-foot tulip poplar trunk 18' from me right now. Its branches are over my kid's bedroom.
We are safer with it next to the house than 50' away. Think velocity. Think leverage. Heck, just think.

Stephan, you had a point.
 

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Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

When did the branch rip out? 8-10 yrs ago? And sometime soon after (possibly before) they had it "thinned" but it looks like it was savaged, especially in the lower branches, which were lion's tailed . . .

I wouldn't be afraid to recommend a serious height/weight reduction, via drop-crotch pruning, back to good natural targets. Mostly in the upper crown, anyway . . . I think it was Shigo who said the lower limbs are the trees' pension or social security? Go easy on them.

Also, any decision with this tree isn't an obvious one. Don't rush the process in an effort to look like an "expert". Ask many questions. If the root system has been compromised by a new driveway or irrigation work, etc., it's going to be alot easier to recommend removal; if the root zone is undisturbed and adequate, it might be better to go with the crown reduction and treatment with paclobutrazol (Cambistat or Profile 2SC) along with continued monitoring . . .
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

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MB, call me a fool then, and you be da wise man, right?

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Who am I to argue with that?
 
Re: I\'m stumped by an oak

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MB, call me a fool then, and you be da wise man, right?

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Who am I to argue with that?

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MasterBlaster you fish eyed fool!
 
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