I am removing the SAKA from the market.

When someone tries to kill a competing product, we all lose. You think you made something better, great, sell it to me. But if you try to hide all my other options I know the one you are selling must be inferior. This pissed me off.

...I may have just fired off a crap storm on 1 or 10 tree groups on Facebook as well.

I am calling and emailing Weaver in the morning and I encourage everyone to do the same.

Weaver Leather, LLC

Phone: (800) 932-8371
International Phone: (330) 674-1782
Fax: (330) 674-0330
Email: info@weaverleather.com
 
FreeFallin said:
When someone tries to kill a competing product, we all lose. You think you made something better, great, sell it to me. But if you try to hide all my other options I know the one you are selling must be inferior......
Click to expand...
I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a second here:

One could also say "When someone can't protect their intellectual property, we all lose." I say this full recognizing that most feel the SAKA is a substantially different product than the Haas. I haven't used the SAKA, so I am NOT saying it is an inferior product - I've heard/read nothing but good about it, so I'm completely willing to accept that it is a better product than the Haas.

I'm assuming Weaver bought the design to the Haas...so they have a financial interest in protecting it. Somebody put a lot of time into designing that and Weaver seems to have bought the rights to it. If a manufacturer doesn't defend its patents, they lose all rights to those patents. Richard recognized this when he filed for a patent request for the SAKA. If they don't have any protection from their products being copied, they aren't incentivized to innovate. Weaver wouldn't have paid Michael Frankhauser anything for his design and development efforts...they would have just started making them and calling them a Haas. Then somebody else would have started making something like it, but slightly different and calling it a Haas as well, etc... Which one is the original? Or does Michael even take time to develop the original since he can't capitalize on it anyhow with so many copies?

Somebody at Weaver thought the SAKA was close enough to the Haas that they asked the courts to decide whether it was or wasn't.

I agree that we are all the losers here - with Richard, as the developer of the SAKA, having the most to lose. My frustration is the expense it takes to defend his own patent. I think we should be more upset with our legal system/attorneys than with another outfit trying to protect their design. Let them both go to court or arbitration, state their case and accept the outcome without spending thousands and thousands along the way. Instead, a great product is lost because the inventor can't afford (or the profit margins of the product don't justify) the legal fees.
 
Personally, I think the smartest thing they could/should have done is to make Richard an offer on his patent rights, as well. Instantly, they have a broader product range with multiple versions... and.... since there is currently no third product with a patent... an even greater chance of protecting their investment, because any future third party product would have to dodge both patents held by one owner. They couldn't pick on any perceived "weakest link" to infringe upon and bring to market a product that only infringes on one of the existing patents. They'd have to deal with the same corporate lawyers, in either case.

I have no idea if Richard would even be interested in such a deal, but it seems to me that pretty much everybody wins, including the customer, with that scenario. Of course, this assumes that Weaver doesn't jack the prices up to frightening levels.
 
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ATH said:
I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a second here:

One could also say "When someone can't protect their intellectual property, we all lose." I say this full recognizing that most feel the SAKA is a substantially different product than the Haas. I haven't used the SAKA, so I am NOT saying it is an inferior product - I've heard/read nothing but good about it, so I'm completely willing to accept that it is a better product than the Haas.

I'm assuming Weaver bought the design to the Haas...so they have a financial interest in protecting it. Somebody put a lot of time into designing that and Weaver seems to have bought the rights to it. If a manufacturer doesn't defend its patents, they lose all rights to those patents. Richard recognized this when he filed for a patent request for the SAKA. If they don't have any protection from their products being copied, they aren't incentivized to innovate. Weaver wouldn't have paid Michael Frankhauser anything for his design and development efforts...they would have just started making them and calling them a Haas. Then somebody else would have started making something like it, but slightly different and calling it a Haas as well, etc... Which one is the original? Or does Michael even take time to develop the original since he can't capitalize on it anyhow with so many copies?

Somebody at Weaver thought the SAKA was close enough to the Haas that they asked the courts to decide whether it was or wasn't.

I agree that we are all the losers here - with Richard, as the developer of the SAKA, having the most to lose. My frustration is the expense it takes to defend his own patent. I think we should be more upset with our legal system/attorneys than with another outfit trying to protect their design. Let them both go to court or arbitration, state their case and accept the outcome without spending thousands and thousands along the way. Instead, a great product is lost because the inventor can't afford (or the profit margins of the product don't justify) the legal fees.
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Extremely well said. Thank you. Much more articulate that what I could’ve posted.
 
treebing said:
I have a very nice system that takes the bungee over the shoulder and clips to the back of my harness. A german guy made it and it tools up very compact and fits in my pocket. its faster than the SAKA or my HAAS but it kind of digs into my shoulder so I don't use it much.
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treebing said:
it is actually medical tubing in a webbing sleeve. very fast and not at all in violation of the haas patent.
Click to expand...
treebing said:
it has a little buckle. I like it but its not as easy to use as the haas bungee in a straw design.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting these ideas and the photograph, Kevin! Maybe with a different attachment point and some kind of added quick-connect device, it would be a winner! I like to take my home-made knee ascender bungee straight up and hook it over my thumb. I use that hand to push up a Gibbs style cammed ascender, which acts as a backup to my other system. The Gibbs style ascender pushes up effortlessly, with no drag, so it takes no energy to do so. The bungee I use on my knee ascender is very weak, which turns out to be a good thing, as it takes very little force to pull a knee ascender up a rope once you raise your foot up. I once tried a stronger bungee, & when I'd want to raise my hand up without raising my foot first, it would require too much effort. The weak bungee allowed me to leave my foot in place, but not wear my ass out when I tried to raise my Gibbs up. As soon as I raised my foot, the knee ascender would run up the rope. The bungee was able to take my abuse of over stretching it once in awhile for a long time before I had to replace it.

Sorry for the long-winded post. I do know who I'm talking to, so most of this explanation is for others who also read this forum.

I guess my point in all of this is that the item you posted a photo of is a beautiful looking piece of gear, and if slightly modified and used slightly differently, could be the next big thing in knee ascenders.

Thanks again for posting.

Tim

P.S. Tell your german friend that all he needs to do is post an address and a price and that he might have more sales of his device than he can easily handle. @treebing
 
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I appreciate all the opinions from this group, no terrible ideas coming out here.

I support the patent process. I support Michaels right to say "I cobbled other inventions together in this way, and added my own ideas and innovations to it, you can't just copy my work and sell it."

That is what the patent office is for, and it should be. The patent office is still deciding if Richards way of cobbling together other inventions and adding his own innovations to it has trampled on Michaels. Fine, let that play out.

The part I am not OK with is someone saying, I own all ideas around this thing and if anyone tries to innovate near me I'm going to trip them until they fall.

There is another reason I am throwing my voice into this particular fight, when it was just Michael and Richard having a pissing match over ideas, I could see better ways to work it out like Jeff suggested above, but it was not my fight. Now I see a distinct power imbalance that throws a red flag for me.

Sharing this from the Weaver website, not revealing anything about Michael its all public -
FB_IMG_1519045480228-1.webp

I have nothing against Michael, I only know him from reading his posts online. I'm happy for him working at weaver, seems like a good job to have. But this does change the dynamics in this fight and puts Richard in a position where he cannot win in any fair way.

I understand Weaver has bought and has the right to defend their patent. I also have the right to yell from the sideline if I see bad sportsmanship that can hurt tree climbing by putting a choke hold on any new innovations.

Let the race run. Work out the legal and money disagreements, but don't start tripping people to win, I'm not going to shut up and watch that kind of race.
 
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@treebing; And when you say faster, you mean you get a faster ascent from ground to tree crown, correct? Not that it installs on your body faster, right? Thanks for the clarification.

Also, if what I've said is correct, what do you think accounts for the greater speed in use? The fact that the surgical tubing has a stronger elastic property to it than the bungee cord?

Thanks again, and thanks for posting the link about where to buy the device.

Tim
 
FreeFallin said:
I appreciate all the opinions from this group, no terrible ideas coming out here.

I support the patent process. I support Michaels right to say "I cobbled other inventions together in this way, and added my own ideas and innovations to it, you can't just copy my work and sell it."

That is what the patent office is for, and it should be. The patent office is still deciding if Richards way of cobbling together other inventions and adding his own innovations to it has trampled on Michaels. Fine, let that play out.

The part I am not OK with is someone saying, I own all ideas around this thing and if anyone tries to innovate near me I'm going to trip them until they fall.

There is another reason I am throwing my voice into this particular fight, when it was just Michael and Richard having a pissing match over ideas, I could see better ways to work it out like Jeff suggested above, but it was not my fight. Now I see a distinct power imbalance that throws a red flag for me.

Sharing this from the Weaver website, not revealing anything about Michael its all public -
View attachment 49656

I have nothing against Michael, I only know him from reading his posts online. I'm happy for him working at weaver, seems like a good job to have. But this does change the dynamics in this fight and puts Richard in a position where he cannot win in any fair way.

I understand Weaver has bought and has the right to defend their patent. I also have the right to yell from the sideline if I see bad sportsmanship that can hurt tree climbing by putting a choke hold on any new innovations.

Let the race run. Work out the legal and money disagreements, but don't start tripping people to win, I'm not going to shut up and watch that kind of race.
Click to expand...

having spent the night in that family's house i can say that i am enorously uncomfortable, and deeply angered by your posting of that photo in this place during this discussion. i think that crosses a line freefallin. if that were my family you posted like that you would not be happy with the reaction.
 
macswan said:
having spent the night in that family's house i can say that i am enorously uncomfortable, and deeply angered by your posting of that photo in this place during this discussion. i think that crosses a line freefallin. if that were my family you posted like that you would not be happy with the reaction.
Click to expand...

I'm not posting anything bad about Michael or his family, and I actually said I am happy for them and wish them well.

This is the Weaver website, nothing personal and no personal attack going on here, call off your dogs.
 
macswan said:
having spent the night in that family's house i can say that i am enorously uncomfortable, and deeply angered by your posting of that photo in this place during this discussion. i think that crosses a line freefallin. if that were my family you posted like that you would not be happy with the reaction.
Click to expand...

Also, for the sake of avoiding a derail of this conversation, I edited the image I posted, now you can't see his lovely family, or see that I got it from the Weaver website.
 
i am simply telling you how i react to that. there was no valid reason to post that picture, that is not yours to post, i dont give a shit where you got it. thats fucking trolling dumbass.

if it were my wife and kids, in this situation, you'd be picking your teeth out of you next bowel movement.
 
It baffles me. Weaver has chosen to penalize the consumer by removing choice. There can be only one is not a good platform. Sure would suck if there was only one saw on the market. Michael is a really nice guy. I respect him. I don’t support this series of events. I don’t hold him personally responsible but it just sucks.
 
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