Help with a big bid...

GoodYautja

GoodYautja

New member
Location
New England
I will be putting in a bid to fell ten acres of typical lower new england woods. A few specimen trees will remain but it is not a big deal as to which ones. Just felling. I am quite lost as to where to begin figuring out a bid. I would really like to get this job so I will definitely be bidding low, but I would really appreciate any advice.

Also, I was asked if I would be charging by the hour, day or project. I said by the project because that is how I have always preferred to do all my work. It's a personal philosophy thing, plus I prefer to work hard and don't like feeling like I am getting punished for it. Anyways...

Feel free to post here or to PM me and I will keep everything confidential.

Much Thanks!

~GP
 
What do you have for equipment? Are stumps included? I have a contractor expecting me to clear half acre lots for a G. He's lost. I have been told any where from $4,000-$6,000/ acre. What is the terrain and what are you leaving behind?
 
Just fell? You mean show up and make a ten acre mess? Sign me up.
Cut to length? Cut for a skidder, forwarder, tracked chipper, grapple skidder, grinder etc? Whats the terrain? Is there an understory?

Are there houses, roads, powerlines, yards. Old hedgerow trees...etc.

All of these factors will help us help you. If its just you and a chainsaw. Its going to take you a lot longer then you think.
 
I would be picking up a couple new saws for it. No stumps. Not much understory, fairly even terrain some streams. Not cut to length. No targets. I have until the end of June, but I also have a job. If I get behind I may need to call in reinforcements.
 
It would be a stretch if you have a full time job.
Without knowing stems per acre and average diameter, it is really hard to even ballpark. Pictures?

If not cut to length, then what? There is no way that it simply cannot matter how the wood is laid out.

It sounds easy until you are neck deep in slash wondering how you got there... Have you ever logged or cut timber for production?
 
Avg. diameter approx. 14"-16", but there are some big ones too. Stems per acre hard to say... It's not imo "thickly wooded" it's typical for southern new england. It does not matter how the wood is laid out. The most I have ever been involved in is probably felling thirty stems in a day for trail maintenance (it was a fun and easy day).

This does not sound easy to me. I want it anyways.

Someone, not here, said a rate he had heard was $25 per tree. Does that make any sense? That sounds like a lot to me.

I gotta get this bid in soon.

Thanks.
 
At that size, there could be anywhere from 150-300 stems per acre. We are talking maybe 1500 trees total. That is a lot of trees for one person to tip on the weekends.

I run a tree biz in the warmer months and have logged for the past 4 winters. I am not the best, but getting better. I have done some clearing jobs, and estimate that I can clear about a half acre per day. This is full out slamming timber. Not messing around.

Do not forget the understory. It will take you a couple days just to deal with that. It is worth pre-cutting the understory before you start felling.

From your amount of felling experience, it sounds like this is out of your league. No offense. But you should try an hourly rate if you are going to do it. Cos @ 25$ a tree. that leads to bout 35,000$. Haha! And you have to keep track of how many trees you cut. Nightmare!

Good luck
 
Man that sounds like an AWSOME job. and no clean up. Wish my customers wanted that down here.
I think I would go after it hourly... I know you like to work hard, and shouldnt be punished for that... You also dont want to get punished for underbidding and worked that hard. When I charge hourly, I explain I work hard and why my rate is higher than the next guy. 8 out of 10 jobs I bid this way I get.
It shouldnt be that difficult as long as you have a little self control and splash them with a system in mind. But if you go buck nutty and just cut... that will be a MESSS.
Give a shout if you need reinforcments. This would be fun. Good luck.
 
Here's what i would do...take a small portion of the area to work...figure out how long it'll take to do that area...then figure out how many more of that size area it'll take to complete the job, by yourself. Be honest too. It may be easy to walk through there right now but it's a different story when there's crapload of timber on the ground. You have to visualize this when cruising the area.

Now you got a number to work with. Calculate fuel and equipment costs and then give them a break because, after all, you're gonna be working solid for a month or two...that's worth something in itself.

In the end, decide what you would charge, to do what you love doing for two months straight, and use that to help average things out. If you screw up on this one it's no big deal. There's no better way to learn a system than for it to bite you in the butt every once in awhile. There's a reason why you don't touch that orange eye on the stove anymore....and as long as you can live through it, there's no better way to learn. Sorry for the rant...just my two cents.
 
Great thoughts you guys. Thank you.

My estimate was right around yours, that there could be ~2000.

I was estimating (not very educatedly) 1 acre per day, so that is helpful to hear, chep, that 1/2 acre is probably closer to reality.

TreeLogic,
I wish I could work on it two months straight... I work with a tree care company full time AND this needs to be complete by the end of the month, but I really appreciate your comments and I agree... I always try to learn from my mistakes.

I just can't see putting in a bid around $35K. If i'm doing 1/2 acre a day, that's 20 days, or a five day work week for a month... AKA $420,000 per year salary if that was my full time job. Seems a tad unreasonable.

My whole life I have worked cheap, (and happy to do so because I never cared much for money) but now I find myself thinking of some goals I may wish to reach, goals which would require some capital. So basically big numbers are unusual to me, and I'm still a bit lost. All I really want is what is fair, I wouldn't even do it for a penny more.

Well, I'm gonna put something in, thanks again fellers.

~GP
 
I don't think 35,000 is out of hand at all. You will be overwhelmed. FWIW, I just bid more than 10 for five trees and was the lowest bid. Don't short yourself. The heat is coming. This wont be an after work picnic.
Best advice I can give, don't look at the number. Look at the work.
 
I hesitated to jump in here. But what the heck. I've done a fair number of drop only acreage clearing of euc stands in SoCal and pine, cedar and oaks in the mountains of Palomar, Big Bear and Lake Arrowhead.

I figured a thousand bucks an acre, so that even if I only got a half acre a day, I'd still get 5 bills a day for me and my groundie, who'd also be dropping the small easy stuff in front of me. Most days we hit that one acre mark, but never got less than half an acre. Only takes about 10 minutes to fell even a large tree that's unobstructed.

We used a Honda Foreman Fourtrax and trailer for hauling saws fuel medkits axes wedges and climbing gear etc.

So Good Predator and I are very close to being at the same rates.

My two cents at any rate.

Good luck on your bid GP, but don't even think about trying a felling job of that size alone.

jomoco
 
There may be an acre or more of throw lining and pull downs and that can add up quickly to an extra day or more.
RopeArmor can help to smooth things over.
Cheers.
 
Just remembered something important for you to bear in mind about your bid GP.

You mentioned streams and creeks on the acreage you're bidding on.

When I took my test to become a Licensed Timber Operator in San Bernadino many years ago both the study material and instructors warned everyone taking the test to beware of driving or dropping trees in waterways, even small ones, or the EPA could and would fine the snot out of you if they found any evidence of any LTO contractor driving through them or dropping trees into them at all.

As I recall the instructor and study guide suggested building temporary bridges to cross waterways with any type of vehicle or wheeled equipment or risk being heavily fined.

Bear that in mind, and if it's a factor? Tack a few grand on for the time and lumber necessary to bridge the waterways. Assuming of course the same EPA rules and restrictions apply in New England that most definitely do here in CA.

Good luck.

jomoco
 
I fell timber in the winter, and also just recieved my supervisory timber harvest license for CT. I second what jomo says about working near the water. Nothing should be left in or near the water.

I believe i can hand fall about an acre a day when i work in the woods. I will tell you though, the mess is astounding. I could not imagine not have a skidder on site.

Good luck!
 
Ditto all that has been said and add that in addition to an astounding mess you may find the person you are working for may change their mind about leaving stuff as it lays.

At best you get extra work, if you are equipped to handle it. At worst, they'll not pay you because you can't/didn't/won't finish the job even though that is not the job you were initially hired to do.

Regardless, it will leave you with a sour taste should it happen.
 
Im going to try to get up in The woods and take pictures of a selective cut we got on the ground before the sap started to run, just to give you an idea of the mess and danger with dropping and leving trees.
 
Sounds like an ill advised plan, sorry GP. Too many questionable factors to speculate the outcome.

I'd think you'd want to subcontract at your hourly rate, eh?

You'll want the skidder there moving wood as you cut it, and a felling partner too. Three or four man operation with trucks hauling continually from the landing until it's all gone.

I'm guessing your bid would get beat by an actual logging outfit or landclearing operation with all the right equipment. They'd be all done and off to the next one in a week or less. - or is it just gonna be cut to firewood by the landowner and his buddies? - I guess I don't get it, that's not really the way to do a logging job.

What is the ultimate use of the land? Is it worth having your name on all that mass ecosystem destruction?

The streams you mentioned are cause for concern, does the work on the site require approval/permitting? Are you working for another reputable company or the actual landowner?

Just sayin', think this through thoroughly before you commit, I'd hate to see you get burned. That big paycheck always looks a little smaller after you've worked and waited for it. Good luck!
 
So, I put in a bid somewhere between the cost of two chainsaws and 35k. The owner said he wanted to talk to the big company and get them to price out the felling separately from the logging and other work that will come after and he would get back to me.

He got back to me and said he wanted to try me out and see what I could get done hourly/daily. I guess my bid was somewhat acceptable, however he has been cutting once in a while and he has had another guy in there also, so I will not be getting the full job, but have a chance to work hourly.

I was there today, seven hours total. A lot had already been felled but there's still much left (maybe half? so five acres). I spent one hour talking and another two hours making the six total trips across the slash that needed to be made. So four hours cutting (two sessions each with full tanks of fuel). I think I got a half-acre or near it done.

It was a blast. Seriously, I just had to make a mess. There was already a mess there so there was no point in trying to get a system going, just dropping where I could. Ya'll would love it!

As far as the ultimate use of the land, I will provide details when the job is complete. I think it's very interesting, and it is what makes me feel good about being a part of this project. I have confidence that the owner has all his ducks in a row with regards to permissions. I guess there is the chance that he is mad at his neighbor for never cutting his grass and so while he is away on vacation my guy decided to clearcut his backyard... but I think that would kinda be worth it too : ) Cheers!
 
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