going ultralight....a radical paradigm shift

S

SRTTech

Lets stop for a minute and examine our gear (recreational only): 1/2" to 9/16" climbing ropes, strong enough to lift a truck, steel carabiners with breaking strengths exceeding 50,000lbs, huge false crotch pulleys, hefty slings that a crane could use for lifting tanks, thick 2mm throwlines and bulky lead weights, massive slingshots, and all the other associated gear for recreational tree climbing........it all adds up to lots of weight to carry around, which makes the climber fatigued....even before they start climbing. And lets not forget about the climbing ropes......do we REALLY NEED ropes that have a MINIMUM breaking strength of 5000+ lbs? Do we really need lanyards and friction savers made from webbing that is strong enough to tow a 15ton truck. Do we really need that big steel carabiner? the same one that military helicopters use to hold a 50,000lb load under the belly of the 'copter? in short, do we really need to lug around all this weight?

I for one am tired, tired of hauling a 50lb pack whenever i want to go treeclimbing on the weekends. Rope, slings, biners, harness, gloves, helmet, throwlines, throwweights, buckets and bags for everything, water, food, rain gear, first aid kit, etc etc etc. My shoulders are hurting, i'm getting tired and i have'nt even started climbing yet!!!! and i'm very physically fit! /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

So I propose a radical paradigm shift in this matter, a shift towards thinner ropes, smaller slings, lighter biners, etc.

"oh but the safety factor" the gallery cries! "tradition" they cry, "you can't do that! they murmur, "who does he think he is?" they whisper.

well, I'll tell you who i am: i'm a person that is never satisfied with anything, i need to tweak and fiddle and remake and experiment with things, to suit MY NEEDS.

so here goes:

Climbing rope:

Black Widow Micro Bull line.

Yes thats right, a bull line for climbing. It is 1/4" thick, (and yet it STILL exceeds 6000lbs min breaking strength, so all the safety naysayers should be happy), it packs into a tiny rope bag, almost 75% SMALLER than a same length climbing line. Its insanely lightwieght for its strength rating...so already we have dropped weight in our kit. Its tough, abrasion resistant, and you know what? works just fine for a climbing line.

Throwlines.

Berkley FIRELINE. 100lb test, 1/2 MM thick (YES a half mm thick!) slick as can be, tough as cable and VERY abrasion resistant, even over dirt and stones. Deploys easily, stores easily, and unlike regular throwlines, can be spooled up every time for storage. will pull a rope up into a tree lickety split and with ease.

Throwweights:

a 3/4 oz lead weight, tied to the above mentioned FIRELINE, can be shot upwards of 400 feet with a small handheld slingshot. No need for 1 lb (16oz) throwbags anymore. (seriously, ONE POUND throwbags??? /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif )

Slingshot:

a small cheap handheld slingshot, that weighs about 3 oz, replaces a 30lb bigshot or whathaveyou.

Friction Savers:

thin strong 1/2" wide Dyneema or Spectra webbing. With smaller 1" steel ring on one side, and a 1.5" steel ring on the other. OR a SMALLER leather tube (thinner climbing line remember?)

Carabiners:

ditch that 1 lb steel locking biner and get a ultralight locking aluminum biner. Weighs 2oz. (and to think i used to carry over 10 lbs of biners in my kit.

Pulleys:

go small and go light. Micro pulleys rock. Think GRAMS vs POUNDS....we dont need big steel false crotch pulleys...!

packs and storage bags:

toss that heavy cordura.....lots of strong ultralight nylon and other material packs out there that weigh less than a 1/4 LB (thats even less than most throwweights...!)

so there you have it. A very massive weight REDUCTION, with no loss in the safety factor. Everything packs into a smaller pack, its lighter to carry, less fatiguing, which makes for a better easier day of climbing. I think that with a downsizing in gear size (for recreational climbing ONLY) will produce a new breed of extreme, fast climbers.

HOW LIGHT CAN WE GO, while retaining a healthy safety factor? < I issue this challenge to all: input your ideas, tests, etc. Lets find materials and new fibers, new technology etc, that can be used for going ultralight, while retaining that all important safety factor.

I have already started, i have gone to some extremes already that would make some of you freak out and cringe /forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif but i trust my life in those decisions and picks of gear. I have never been a follower, i have always been a leader and a innovator. I'm already climbing a mixed hybrid style of DRT & SRT combined.


THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX!!!! (or in this case the tree)
/forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
I agree with the whole "lighter" idea. However, be a little weary of creating new gear for yourself unless you are sure that you have thought it totally through.

For example, the balck widow line would be a horrible choice for a climbing line. First, no friction hitch would hold on it. No ascenders would work well with it either, and would no doubt pick it apart. And third, it is a dynema rope. Dynema has a very low melting point and would be a poor choice for that application.

I like how you are thinking and agree. Keep challenging the standard ideas and look for new ideas. Just be sure to see all of the angles.
 
For rec climbing you're on the right track. But...for work related climbing we do have to meet ANSI/OSHA standards or have a VERY compelling reason not to. Ropes must meet 5,400# breaking strength, connectors must meet 5k# breaking strength and be autolocking.

You did start the conversation with rec climbing though...fair enough.

Saving weight is important but there is also a safety factor to be built into gear choices. I use Maxim Tech Cord for some applications. Take a look at Sample 4 here:

http://www.swaygogear.com/hotknife/default.html

Saving weight but giving up durability is another issue. Agreed, 1,000 weight Cordura is a bit overboard for some applications when a rip-stop pack cloth would suffice. Going too light can lead to using materials that aren't durable and then are trashed too soon. this is a waste of natural resources.

The gear choices I make for climbing are based on the climb and access. If the access is going to be a long approach I grab my 3/8" KMIII and would probably go totally SRT. If the tree is in the front yard right next to the curb I would rather have other gear.

As gear is due for replacement I always consider going lighter. Every day more and more gear is becoming available that crosses over to treework.

Good topic!
 
I'd be soiling my skivvies hanging off that Black Widow line, ESPECIALLY SRT!!!
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SRT, your ideas are good, however your at least 10 years too late.

I have repelled oon black widow, nothing terribly unnerving about it, 3 wraps on a rescue 8 though! For the reasons mark mentioned, it would be a terrible climbing line, also even with sticky gloves it would be terribly hard on the hands to grasp.

I know of one person that climbs on a 5/8" bull line, everyone else I know climbs on 1/2" or 7/16". My 200' climbing line weighs 11lbs.

My bigshot weighs maybe 5-6 lbs including the pole, 30 lbs is a bit rediculous, my 088 weighs 30lbs with a 41" bar.

A 100 lb test thrownline wouldnt be strong enough to tow a suitable climbing line into the tree.

I believe your the only person I know of that uses steel biners for climbing, Butch uses steel snaps however. I use aluminum biners, tri acting.... hardly a new idea.

If you want to save weight on your ultralight friction saver, why are you using steel rings? Aluminum rings are just dandy.

Steel blocks for climbing pullies? You'd be the only person there. Its common to use micro pullies in the climbing system, my ART RG weighs a couple pounds and can fit around a 3' diameter bole.

Crack open a Sherrill Catalog and a version of Tree Climbers Companion, your eyes will be opened!

It sounds like with your 1lb biners, 30lb bigshot, 20lb climbing line, 5lb steel block..... your kit would need to be hauled by 2 pack mules or a team of climbers, one climber should be required to carry that kit to the tree.
 
yea i exagerated a bit on some of the the weights ...going by catalog descriptions can be misleading (ie: the BIGSHOT wieght has been listed at everything from 8LBS to 30 lBS for the case alone, hence my posting of 30lbs...with case... :)

i used the Black Widow as a example of very modern technology producing a ultralight high test line. Have read about a few people using it for climbing and liking it. Perhaps there is something similar in size and durability? and heck why not make a MINI Rescucender that will fit a 1/4" line......?

RE: the steel rings in the friction saver:

Having rappelled THRU a set of aluminum rings (rappel specific) , and worn halfway thru a aluminum biner, there is no way in Hades i would EVER run a rope thru a aluminum friction saver ring again. Hence the stainless steel. At that size (1" & 1.5") the weight is comparable to aluminum, with the durability and wear of stainless steel.

Durability vs safety issues:

of course i keep this in mind. However it has been proven to me time and time again that just because something is light, does'nt mean it is NOT durable. Better living thru modern chemicals/manufacturing processes...


and yes, I'm applying this STRICTLY to Recreational climbing.

so far the success i have had the most with the ultralight gear has been:

- The mini sling (Dyneema) friction saver with stainless steel D rings (5/16th for the large one proof tested WLL of 1500lbs, and 1/4" D for the small ring, proof tested WLL at 1000 lbs (not all stainless steel D rings are made equally - I found several of the SAME size that were vastly different in WLL difference). For the record i snatch towed a 3/4 ton truck using the 1/4" "D" ring with ZERO bendage or breakage, using a NON STRETCH sling for the snatchsling.

- the FireLine throw line. So ridiculously light for the strength. (a Fireline in the equivalent diameter to a 1.75mm Zingit would rate at over 2000lbs test.) I chose the 100lb test because thats all i need for MY applications. I used 15lb Fireline for fishing in snaggy and sharp rocked rivers for an entire 2 seasons, with ZERO breakage and minor fuzzing. 100 Lb test is thin, packs down to nothing, takes up less than a 3" x3" space and returns to earth thru the tree with such little wieght (hence the 3/4oz lead throw weight).

LUMBERJACK: i have towed a full length of 200foot 11mm BW11 with EASE into a tree, over the limb and back down. (need gloves mind you). The Fireline is a very tough and strong line, thier 100lb test often breaks at 130lbs. It is underated for its wieght limit. My rope weight does'nt EVEN come close to half the load limit of the Fireline.

slingshot:

since i downsized the throwline and wieght, a little handheld slingshot gets my line way up into the tree, with little if any effort. I often overshoot fifty to a hundred feet PAST the canopy.

- the Carabiners: Having coming from a industrial SRT/wilderness rescue/high angle background, where NOTHING BUT steel biners were used, it took me a long time to trust an aluminum biner. So thats why they seem new to me. I prefer the steel thats all, but am Grudgingly accepting light aluminum biners. So my choice for this is my locking Chamonix "nuclear sunset" anodized locking biner.

Lanyards and limb straps:

- ultralight Dyneema anchor slings, (loops at the ends, 10feet long). Have had ZERO abrasion issues, even on rough barked limbs. (these are used on rock remember? a little less forgiving than bark). They are a 1/2" wide and tough as nails. even the friction from a prusick adjuster has not glazed or fuzzed these slings. weighs diddly sqaut (1.5 oz) compared to a rope flipline/lanyard/limb strap

Pack:

my ultralight nylon pack has held up for three years of hiking thru bush. I dont abuse my gear or let it become
snagged on branches or tossed on the rough ground. non issue in terms of durability.

------

keep the comments coming! i have a thick "cambium" and dont mind critiscism. I realize some will be against going light like this, its NOT for everybody. I take my own safety seriously and have thoroughly researched published and ACTUAL working load limits.
 
I've switched over my loop runner/slings to Dyneema as the nylon ones wear out. More because of compactness than weight. It gets bulky on my harness sometimes.

There have been some aluminum rings on false crotches that weren't hardened and they showed quick wear. Like all gear it requires inspection at every use.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Climbing rope:

Black Widow Micro Bull line.

Yes thats right, a bull line for climbing. It is 1/4" thick, (and yet it STILL exceeds 6000lbs min breaking strength, so all the safety naysayers should be happy), it packs into a tiny rope bag, almost 75% SMALLER than a same length climbing line. Its insanely lightwieght for its strength rating...so already we have dropped weight in our kit. Its tough, abrasion resistant, and you know what? works just fine for a climbing line.


[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Have read about a few people using it for climbing and liking it.

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......so...you haven't tried this yourself?
 
waiting for a 200 foot spool of the stuff.

i should mention that this is'nt NEW to me. I have years of experience canyoning with 7 and 8 MM static rappel lines. well over 1500 raps on 8mm line, and 200 raps on 8mm line on structure. Interesting to note that in canyoning, you have to deal with rock edge cutting, sand/stone abrasion/cutting and water on the lines, whereas in treeclimbing (REC only), with a little creative rigging you can ELIMINATE all sources of friction (except at the belay knot or device), cutting, and other hazards. So if you can find a thinner rope that has the same strength (and now with modern fibers, even MORE srtength) and abrasion and heat resistance as "normal" ropes, why not adapt their use for a light rec climbing rack?
 
[ QUOTE ]
And third, it is a dynema rope. Dynema has a very low melting point and would be a poor choice for that application.

[/ QUOTE ]

Melting point of Dyneema is 297*.
Melting point of polyester is 480*.
Vectran and technora are 625* and 900* respectively (they don't melt, they char and separate).

Be careful using Dyneema as a life support line.
 
SRTTECH - I appreciate where you are coming from to save weight, but it looks to me like there are too many radical ideas being implemeted at the same time. I wouldn't like this to be one of your last threads.....

If you are going to be accessing via SRT, I never advocate less than 11mm kernmantle (10.5 at a push). This is because in a factor 2 fall (like if that high shot isn't over what you think it is) the core is protected by the sheath shredding. My ascender lanyard has an energy absorber built in (Petzl spelegyca) to prevent that. An 8mm diameter kernmantle would just explode with that kind of force. An 8mm line that doesn't have a sheath is just suicidal in this scenario. Jumarring up 8mm lines is used in mountaineering, but 8mm lines are only used in twin or double rope systems i.e. the second line is used as a back up to the belay.

To re-cap, never SRT with toothed ascenders on less than 11mm true kernmantle rope that meets EN1891 Type A. A very low stretch line like the one you are talking about, would transfer even more force to the ascenders. And even using it doubled for DdRT, if you drop 50cm (not much) the impact force would be incredibly high (it can already reach 1200Kg of force to the climber with a Type A rope).

I don't know about smooth cammed ascenders, but I think they would chop a small diameter rope as well.

Just my two pence worth! /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
To me, 50cm (near 20") is a pretty goodly fall in a tree.

Most smooth cammed ascenders, fitted on the proper rope, slip around 1k lbs, give or take.
 
all right, so the Black Widow line is out due to temperature issues. fair enough. (still keeping the line for other uses)

so a switch to a full Technora line ( 12-Strand Single-Braided TECHNORA®) . according to one manufacturer, its highly abrasion resistant, high temp resistant, takes a friciton hitch or cam well, and is 75% lighter and stronger than a equivalent sized arborist line. a 3/8" line is only 4.4 lbs for 150 feet, and is rated for 18000lbs. Does that meet with everynes standards? :| (interesting to note the 1/4" line is rated higher than all your arborist climbings.....8000lbs test vs 5400lbs.... ;)

so i shave off about 9 lbs in rope weight, it packs down smaller, meets all the safety requiremnts in terms of abrasion (the way i rig though , i have ZERO abrasion points), heat specs and friction hitch compatibility.

downside is the price. oy vey Technora is expensive... :(

thanks to all for the comments, comcerns and references. :)

BTW here is a chart of Technoras strength vs size. :)

cat02.gif
 
You're neglecting the stretch importance of a (single) lifeline! High strength lines tend to be too low stretch for safe climbing. Technora will be like steel. If you slip you are really going to feel it. Then there are UV issues.

I feel like I'm holding onto a VERY heavy Lemming - can anyone take over or should I just let go? /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
Lumberjack - 20" of slack can easily occur if you grab and pull both sides of the line to quickly get over a branch. If the branch snaps or we lose balance (because of dysfunctional proprioception /forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif) before tailing the slack its easily possible, which was why I ran the test.

I only use to illustrate what forces are lurking on the unsuspecting when climbing DdRT with low stretch lines. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
This week I added a Yates Screamer to my Frog system. The Screamer is attached to the upper, handled, ascender by a small stainless steel screw link. After reading some literature about the forces generated by small drops onto static lines it made a lot of sense to have something in the system that would automatically reduce the impact load on the ascender and my body in case of a slip or fall.
 
^ and thats something i should have perhaps mentioned. On ALL of my harnesses, be it the industrial full body, my CMI rescue, my ultralight tactical or my new Bashlin tree saddle, I use pre-rigged load absorbers like the "screamer" that Tom mentions. (for rec climbign to boot) I'm well covered for shock loads :)

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on another topic, YES, the line i chose is a full static. Freak out all you want about using a static line for accessing the first limb (read carefully here and you will see a static line IS NOT AN ISSUE here)...i'm NOT using a STATIC line WHEN MOVING ABOUT IN THE TREE....im using my lanyard (flipline) AND a DYNAMIC lanyard line for the OVERHEAD tie in point (as well i have the "Screamer" or similar unit on my harness tie in). The Static line is SIMPLY for ACCESSING the FIRST limb. Once there that line stays in place on that limb for the descent later....i think you all misunderstood this point from the get go when i started this thread. Furthermore, no one screams and freaks outs about ascending cliffs on static line, canyoning on static lines or working industrial hi angle work on static lines. My use of DRT or SRT or DRT/SRT HYBRID is to SIMPLY raise myself to the first limb, identical to ascending a cliff to get to a cave, identical to ascending a canyon to get up over a waterfall, identical to ascending a building to get to a window repair etc. The static line is simply 100% efficient and makes the climb SMOOTHER and faster because your not WASTING energy stretching the rope every time you move up a foot like you do with an arborist rope. Climbing a static line (either DRT/SRT or Hybrid)is like walking up a set a stairs.



oy vey. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
I would talk to a manufacturer directly and ask if they recommend using a hollow braid for an ascending line. Being that there is no core, it will flatten out. It will also be very prone to 'picking'. Most static lines have at minimum a 24 strand cover and are a kernmantle construction.
 
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