gear that meets standards

Babberney

Babberney

Location
Austin, TX
We dance around this a lot, but I think it deserves its own thread. I talked to Guy LeBlanc, the director of this years' TXTCC, about what ratings the FS pulley and biner have to meet. I think it should be half of ANSI, since it's only one leg of a two-leg system (I'm not using the adjustable False crotch, but a homemade two-ring FS), but he confirmed that each component must meet the full minimum.

So, we were looking at the Sherrill catalog. The Fixe pulley is rated to 4945 lbs. according to their info, which doesn't quite cut it. My question comes from the Kong biner that is rated to 22kN. Sherrill says it also rates out to 4945 lbs., but in the photo it's plain that Kong has stamped "OSHA/ANSI 5000lbf" on the biner. This is enough to get it past Guy, but would it pass international gear checks? And, if so, would the Fixe pass (does anyone know if the Fixe has a rating stamped on it)?

You may detect my frustration at the inconsistency of the standards. I have always been told 1" tubular webbing passes, even though it is rated below 5000 lbs. I thought it was because of the two-leg idea above, but maybe it's because it's doubled? Same deal with a MT--the cord is rated below 5000 lbs., but there are two ends bearing half the load each, so they pass (right?).

I can't tell if these are questions that get different answers from different judges, or if I just haven't gotten the definitive answer yet. Hope you guys can help me out.

Thanks,
keith
 
kieth,
I have to agree there are inconsistancies which need correcting. personally for everyday use in the field i have no problem using 22kn equip. Regarding TCC, last year our chapter was strict. It was difficult for me to scavenge up all my little tricks because of this inconsistancy with the equip ratings. It is frustating that you cannot use a petzl fixe because it does not meet american standrds by approx 45 lbs. As a matter of fact at ou last TCC i bought before hand a brand new butterfly saddle as a back up for competition. My original bfly is modified, i replaced the stock bridge with a shorter strap( a 22kn quick draw), my saddle was not permitted and i had rely on the back up.
22kn meets european standards, personally I think we should be able to be flexible enough to accept 22kn equip, it is made and designed for life support, is it not?
 
In talking to vendors at PMI I've learned that some biners (SMC specifically) are stamped at the NFPA/ANSI min breaking strength, which is lower than avg breaking strength not the biner itself. sherril advertises one steel SMC screwlink biner as hell strong, but it is stamped 40 kn on the biner. SMC sent me the real numbers. There was a major difference. They said it was to comply with NFPA but was stronger, but needed a stamp, and to add to the safety margin, they stamp it with the minimum rating. I will bring the real numbers home with me toningt for all interested.
 
The Fixe is rated at 22 Kn.

ANSI Z133.1 -2000

3.13 false crotch. A system used to support an arborist climbing line other than a natural crotch. A false crotch shall incorporate rings or a pulley, or some other device that will protect the system and/or arborist climbing line from damage or failure. Each component of the system shall have a minimum tensile strength of 5,000 pounds.

3.4 Arborist saddle: A harness of the Type II design used as part of the climbing system to secure and arborist while aloft.


Type II saddles are designed for work positioning and are described in ANSI A10.14-1991, Requirements for safety belts, harnesses, lanyards, lifelines, and drop lines for construction and industrial use.
 
Tim,

How does this relate to the use of webbing for a FC or 8-9mm cord as a friction hitch (MT, VT, etc.)? Are we technically illegal and looking the other way, or am I missing something?

K
 
WE can use the lesser rated cords because of they are used in the countinuos loop. Just like a prusik cord for footlocking. If the 1" tubular webbing is in the loop format it will pass. All hardware must be 23kn .
 
Not accepting gear approved by CE EN (EN means is meant for work purposes) standards is simply ridiculous!!!
As I said elsewhere, it makes me fell like banning all Americans saddles at my next competition gear check...

Sergio
 
So, are Europeans who compete in the US required to use gear that rates to 23kN? What happens if the ITCC is held outsde the US? I know it's been awhile, but there was a contest in England a few years ago and in Nova Scotia before that. Did CE standards apply there?

Keith
 
Keith,

You're bringing a point out onto the table that has been problematic. Your diplomacy is commended.

This is what I've gathered about the 22kN issue and CE/ANSI or other country standard issues. Yes, Tim quotes scripture which is supposed to be our law. But there has been some latitude given. At some competitions 22kN has been OK for any gear. At last year's ITCC the policy was to allow the B'fly saddle but all of the modified front bridges were inspected. Also, for several years, if a piece of gear passes the standards of the climber's home jurisdiction, they're allowed at the ITCC. Since this is an I'NATIONAL event, we follow I'NATIONAL rules.

A couple of weeks ago I attended a conference for the people who build, inspect and facilitate rope/challenge courses. They have the same issues with the 5k#/22kN problem. One explanation of the 45# difference was explained by the fact that the accepted rating has been arrived at statistically. Depending on the testing statistics, we would expect to see a certain percentage of the biners to break at a lower than 22kN point. If we accept that fact that there are another percentage that break in excess of 22kN, we understand that the 22kN rating is an average. This may seem like a dance around the letter of the law, it certainly does seem to comply with the intent of the law.

My advice would be to go to any TCC with as much printed documentation about gear as you can have in hand. Communication with the chair of the TCC is important too. Getting questions answered ahead of time makes inspection day smoother. Again, keep printed copies of any communications.

Tom
 
These questions work their way back to all sorts of other problems with all the governing people and organizations that come up with these standards. Sure, they are based on test results and other factors, but who's to say one or the other is how it should be.

It's like the ascender issue I have been wondering about. I talked to Petzl about it. Even though the numbers on the insert dont say 23kn, they said that the cover on the FLY rope tears and breaks way before the indicated rating for the ascender. Also, the ascender is not for fall protection. A totally seperate back-up needs to be used. The frame of the ascender shouldn't be used as back-up.

I guess the point is, is that if the gear being used is being used correctly and for it's intent, the judges and tech's should have the knowledge and experience to make a descision and stick with it. In the Penn-Del chapter we adopted the exact rules of the ITCC. Which it should be if your sending a guy there to compete.

Mod's should be allowed as long as it's kosher all the way around. Alot of our judges and tech's really dont seem to fully understand the ratings and other things that we come up with or have questions about. Mod's makes climbing easier for the individual. There just needs to be better education as to how each climbers system and mod's work.

It's a crazy topic, just know your gear and it's intent. So when you bring it to the comp. you'll be fine. I think all the chapters should be ITCC rules anyway.
Plus, one test will give results on a certain rope or gear, then it will be different when you change rope or gear for the same test. You can go on for days about this. LATER
 
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