falling challenge big tulip through deck

Daniel said:
This is utterly and completely wrong perhaps you just made a mistake in the wording but keeping on the stump as long as possible will end up with your butt 20' behind the stump not throwing forward

Having a hinge that takes a lot of energy to break can actually slow the top down after the face closes which is another thing you don't want to happen

On a monster tree the hinge isn't going to do much to stop theMomentum of such a Big Top but when trying to throw a smaller top is very important to cripple the hinge To a point where it will not slow the top down

tell me you didn't mean it please
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A little 70-80 ft top from 130-140 ft. You will notice that the top separates after the tree has rebounded from its pushback and is moving forward. Again this is a subtle technique, but I somehow managed to push the top out 8-10 ft and could have gotten a little more sail out of her if the top still had most of its limbs. Despite what Daniel is telling me, it seems that I can keep a top connected as long as possible, and use the forward momentum to my advantage. Can also do just the opposite when needed. Who'd a thunk it?

 
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Daniel said:
No matter how hard you pull the top will start moving faster than you can go very quickly

Which is evident by the pull line going slck...

That's why when pulling with the truck I started with a good bit of play in the line so truck had speed when line got tight
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If you add a weight, maybe something like the right size of wood, to the middle of the pull rope, you don't lose pull immedately after the tree commits, and is going faster than the pulling object can keep up with rope-slack building up.
 
Daniel said:
There is no way that push back would throw either the pine or the oak top more than a few feet...

If you want to throw a big top you need speed... the whole top has to be moving forward at release..

As soon as the top releases, gravity takes over and the piece starts accelerating groundward

So the arc traveled will be a combination of the two movements accelerating with gravity and the movement of the top existing at separation

You can't change gravity....

Usually by the time the top releases the pull line will go slack and have no more effect on the arc

So getting the top moving forward as fast as possible at separation is the goal... if you cut a wide notch, say 45 degrees or more the top will be moving more down than forward... a 15 to 20 degree notch will allow early separation while the top is moving more forward than down.


That is going to be far far more effective at throwing a top on the trees I work on, than anything you can get from pushback
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If done right you can flip a good sized top getting it to settle upwards of 40’ from the stump. A good climber can do this or swing the butt and land the top 90 degrees to the stump. I am sure you have never seen a climber land logs in a deck 90 degrees to the lay.
I’m not this climber but it’s the environment I work in.
With the right tag and pre stretch you can bungee a piece if done just right, it’s not al about speed..
 
Hi All,
I was helping my son with his grade 12 physics and and the ball throwing questions arose. At what angle ... what is the horizontal vector component of the velocity ... solve the d = d0 + vo delta t + 1/2 gravity t squared ... yada yada. If you kick his question up a notch the ball is the top with a CofG with a horizontal velocity value (which you maximize) and after separation its the parabola solution with the complication of damping from velocity of air through the branch structure. So its a damped parabolic solution. Different videos show the complication of does the stem time its p-toing so its contributing the the horizontal velocity component. That totally depends on the rigidity of the tree. Good guess an oak has less p-toing than a 150 foot spring pole. I'd guess that a good timed p-toing might compete with a pull rope to get horizontal CofG speed. Who's up for frame by framing the appropriate videos? Unfortunately there's probably no calibration in the camera work to get hard numbers. Some math would show at roughly how many degrees of top swing/fall arc the max horizontal Cof G velocity occurs ( cos of the angle?) vs speed of arc swing (falling over pendulum equation). Remember the complication that the pendulum is damped by air resistance (unless you're throwing a chunk of stem with no branches). So who wants to make their brain hurt and do math but get credit for a sticky post for the magic notch cut angle that gets max throw distance?

Would this be called a throw down the gauntlet post?

Best wishes to all. My first post since the days of Kevin's new zk-1.
 
It's a lot more about speed than it is about push back or hanging on the hinge as long as possible... look at the tip speed and rotation from rico's last post.... those tips were rotating fast, almost guaranteeing the but was going to kick back towards the stump

My climbing mentor used to drop the saw as soon as the top started to move and bear claw the butt, swinging it out past his chest and get them to land 90 degrees to the gun... seen him do it many times.. he was a lean machine at 6'5". He got a lot of distance that way, because he was was spinning more than just pushing the top. As the but moved left, the tips moved right... still the size of top he could handle like that was very limited...

How do your people get it done?
 
Daniel said:
Once again that's ridiculous.. you really have no idea about the physics of throwing a top..
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More silliness for you Danny, and this one completely contradicts some of the nonsense you have been spewing here.

a little 35-40 ft top from 135 ft. Notice how she frees up before the tree is even done moving backwards. Thats because I made a very shallow undercut and got after my hinge very early in the process. I needed this top to land at the stump or just slightly behind it, and thats just what she did buddy.

Just a couple quick vids showing that you can manipulate when the top leaves the stump, and use the pushback or forward movement to your advantage.

 
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Wow,
that's a great piece of video... a lot to learn from that video. we don't get trees that move like that around here.... so it just goes to show that it's important to keep an open mind. Different species, sizes etc really do have have a huge effect on the physics... That said if you notice the top did brush some other trees, slowing the forward movement, though its tough to tell how much without looking at the vid in slow motion....
 
Daniel said:
Wow,
that's a great piece of video... a lot to learn from that video. we don't get trees that move like that around here.... so it just goes to show that it's important to keep an open mind. Different species, sizes etc really do have have a huge effect on the physics... That said if you notice the top did brush some other trees, slowing the forward movement, though its tough to tell how much without looking at the vid in slow motion....
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Its pretty clear that the top disengaged well BEFORE the spar began its forward movement. Its also pretty clear in the other vid that the top hung on well AFTER the spar began its forward push.

Its also pretty clear that you have no fucking idea what I'm talking about when I speak of pushback and forward movement. Maybe you should come out west and top a big conifer once in your life, and get fucking enlightened bro.

I am simply tossing out little clips to show folks that you can in fact dictate when your top leaves the stump, and use the pushback or forward movement to your advantage.
 
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That was some pure buttery smooth poetry in motion, and an amazing display of your profound understanding of the subtle physics involved in topping trees. Next level shit Daniel!

I'm out..........
 
@Daniel you can adapt this technique by anchoring in a footing below the notch and a hook and sling above the notch, and tether to catch the pipe. We have used this to jump trees over fences and retaining walls. Showed this years ago, don't use it often but once you invest in a couple heavy walled pipes, ramps or beams we added some interesting engineering to removals.
@rico
try being kind
 
Jehinten said:
Serious question for you @Daniel you mentioned not being able to stand in spurs which I get, but could you not make the 10-25' climb that your talking about here for one notch and back cut? And how is standing on a ladder rung different for your feet than standing on spurs? .
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Last time I was in spurs was about 30-40 minutes in Nov 2016... Easy medium oak removal... My feet ached night and day for 6 months.. limping around jobsites in sneakers... Got so bad at times I was scared I wasn't going to be able to work.. Never did take pain killers... So I can walk up and down a ladder carefully without putting the kind of pressure on the arches that you get wearing spikes... On this tree I could set a line and stay in the saddle for the cut.


RopeShield said:
@Daniel you can adapt this technique by anchoring in a footing below the notch and a hook and sling above the notch, and tether to catch the pipe. We have used this to jump trees over fences and retaining walls. Showed this years ago, don't use it often but once you invest in a couple heavy walled pipes, ramps or beams we added some interesting engineering to removals.
Click to expand...

That's pretty creative.... Thanks for the input.... the nice thing about these threads is that they get people thinking
 
RopeShield said:
@Daniel you can adapt this technique by anchoring in a footing below the notch and a hook and sling above the notch, and tether to catch the pipe. We have used this to jump trees over fences and retaining walls. Showed this years ago, don't use it often but once you invest in a couple heavy walled pipes, ramps or beams we added some interesting engineering to removals.
@rico
try being kind
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Being the combative prick that I am, I feel it is my constitutional duty to respond to your post Rope.

Despite the epic, tension filled music, your vid left me somewhat flaccid. Dare I say limp. Also a little vague as to how this amazing apparatus is gonna help the illustrious Murphman “toss a big top”.

And in the spirit of keeping it friendly rope, I would suggest that you kindly go eat a turd.
 
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No arborist here but here is what I have done in the past to impart movement.

If you cut a narrow notch (to allow separation of top from lower trunk before much rotation of top has taken place) and tie your pull line only slightly above the notch then the pull line will impart a horizontal moving force in line with the ropes pull, to a point only slightly above the base of the point of cut, instead of simply rotating it as it would if tied at a conventional location further up the stem.. Seems this would also lessen the need for vehicle pull speed as the line would be stretched under more tension and the distance the ropes tie in point would need to travel to impart motion on the fat end of the top would be far less than a typical top tied situation.

Your variation with the step cut and higher tie in point was interesting and I will try an A vs B if I ever have a row of trees in a safe area to test the changes.

With a tree through a deck, I would still (if a suitable drop zone were available) remove the required deck section, since I am comfortable and have all the tools to do the deckwork and since it would negate the whole need to climb 30 ft up the trunk make cuts and hope I could get enough pull to launch the top clear of the deck. However since its my impression from what I read that on this job a drain field is in the drop zone I would have to do as so many others have said and simply subcontract it to someone else who is comfortable in their ability to rope it down a section at a time.

Just throwing out my take as a viewer, new to trees type of guy... with all due respect to others much greater knowledge on this subject.
 
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