Explanation of differences between "Old Growth" and "2nd Growth".

[evo]

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Now a white pine 95' tall is a dandy around here. I have three just over 100' on my place. Quite a few 75 footers coming along for someone down the road.

Wow all y’all’s white pines are short.. granted 100’ers around here aren’t super common but they get a into the 150’ range around here
“Overmature trees are often more than 180 cm (71 in) in d.b.h. and 60 m (197 ft) tall.”

Pinus monticola Dougl

 

[Shadowscape]

Wow all y’all’s white pines are short.. granted 100’ers around here aren’t super common but they get a into the 150’ range around here
“Overmature trees are often more than 180 cm (71 in) in d.b.h. and 60 m (197 ft) tall.”

Pinus monticola Dougl

I would love to have a 150' white pine. Not going to see one in my lifetime in these parts. Maybe they grow slower here because of the winters. 50 below zero is not uncommon this far north. We still have ice covered lakes here. There was a couple of swans walking around on the lake today, probably wondering why the water was so hard.

 

[oceans]

Send me a couple links. I am.lazy but interested. I LOVE New England as you rightly know Eric.....

Paul my man. Here a few links. The channel has a good bit of content, but these seem to align with this thread…

Old Forests

NE’s tallest

Coevolution

Enjoy! And if you want to see some “forest forensics”, the same channel has compiled some work of Tom Wessels. Pretty cool stuff.

Maybe @moss will chime in. He’s a resource in and of himself!

 

[macrocarpa]

On the topic of old growth forests, the Old Growth Forest Network is an organization doing good work to preserve whats left. I’m probably due for a donation this year.

The founder of the old growth forest network was a speaker at an urban forestry conference a while back and she really captured my attention. It was a refreshing break from the same old topics that are regurgitated year after year at these types of conferences. She’s a professor that has written several books about old growth forests - Joan Maloof

Old-Growth Forest Network

The Old-Growth Forest Network is the only national network in the U.S. of protected, old-growth, native forests where people of all generations can experience biodiversity and the beauty of nature. Our goal is to locate and designate at least one protected forest in every county in the United States

www.oldgrowthforest.net

 

[surveyor]

@Shadowscape, My grandfather ran a sawmill operation in the Bemidji area.

 

[rico]

A rainy day here so a neighbor and I went bushwacking in a truly untouched OG patch I didn’t know about. From my place this sacred spot is about a 25 minute walk straight back into the woods. We walked through this untouched OG forest for 2-2.5 hours and never saw a single sign of humanity. Nothing. I would imagine very few people have ever seen this place since grizzly bear, elk , and the natives roamed these hills. An inspiring and mind blowing morning.

Welcome to my church folks. Massive timber as far as the eye can see, and a pristine and diverse eco system fully intact. Just as nature intended.

 

[islandarb]

A rainy day here so a neighbor and I went bushwacking in a truly untouched OG patch I didn’t know about. From my place this sacred spot is about a 25 minute walk straight back into the woods. We walked through this untouched OG forest for 2-2.5 hours and never saw a single sign of humanity. Nothing. I would imagine very few people have ever seen this place since grizzly bear, elk , and the natives roamed these hills. An inspiring and mind blowing morning.

Welcome to my church folks. Massive timber as far as the eye can see, and a pristine and diverse eco system fully intact. Just as nature intended.


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Now that is an enchanting oasis.

 

[rico]

Now that is an enchanting oasis.

I have spent most of my life in the redwoods and the pristine pumpkin patch I was in today is something very special.

 

[Steve-o]

A rainy day here so a neighbor and I went bushwacking in a truly untouched OG patch I didn’t know about. From my place this sacred spot is about a 25 minute walk straight back into the woods. We walked through this untouched OG forest for 2-2.5 hours and never saw a single sign of humanity. Nothing. I would imagine very few people have ever seen this place since grizzly bear, elk , and the natives roamed these hills. An inspiring and mind blowing morning.

Welcome to my church folks. Massive timber as far as the eye can see, and a pristine and diverse eco system fully intact. Just as nature intended.


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I’m so jealous. I got a taste of the mighty redwoods last summer at Muir Woods. Never felt more in awe of nature and can only imagine a place like it without the fences and walking paths….and all the people. Rick on @rico .

 

[Shadowscape]

A rainy day here so a neighbor and I went bushwacking in a truly untouched OG patch I didn’t know about. From my place this sacred spot is about a 25 minute walk straight back into the woods. We walked through this untouched OG forest for 2-2.5 hours and never saw a single sign of humanity. Nothing. I would imagine very few people have ever seen this place since grizzly bear, elk , and the natives roamed these hills. An inspiring and mind blowing morning.

Welcome to my church folks. Massive timber as far as the eye can see, and a pristine and diverse eco system fully intact. Just as nature intended.


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Wow!

 

[oceans]

I think what creases me about the idea of purely untouched forest being best (healthiest, etc…insert your favorite word) is that humans are also a part of an ecosystem, and to deny our part is to create an even greater disconnect from our deepest code. I am definitely not saying that we should all be out there with our own 3120s, feller bunchers and grapple yarders. I am saying that if we all had the same reverence for the place you just visited, perhaps all forests would closely resemble it. Call me an idealist, but wouldn’t all forests being healthy ecosystems that support the broadest range of life be better than trying to find ways to set aside a microscopic percentage of forests to be untouched while we decimate the rest into monoculture timber crops for harvest?

 

[macrocarpa]

I think what me creased about the idea of purely untouched forest being best (healthiest, etc…insert your favorite word) is that humans are also a part of an ecosystem, and to deny our part is to create an even greater disconnect from our deepest code. I am definitely not saying that we should all be out there with our own 3120s, feller bunchers and grapple yarders. I am saying that if we all had the same reverence for the place you just visited, perhaps all forests would closely resemble it. Call me an idealist, but wouldn’t all forests being healthy ecosystems that support the broadest range of life be better than trying to find ways to set aside a microscopic percentage of forests to be untouched while we decimate the rest into monoculture timber crops for harvest?

I think I understand where you’re coming from. We live in a society that has convinced itself that we humans are the only living beings on earth that are separate from nature. I think we’ve been living in that story for long enough to conclude It’s not working out very well. That the conquest and domination of nature will lead us to utopia. Are we there yet? But Look at all the happy people.

Maybe we can use iTree to quantify the eco & social dollar value of the forests and that will change people’s minds and make them Revere the forests more. (Sarcasm)

In my town a developer recently bulldozed 20 acres of not old growth but in my opinion, mature healthy forest. Beech, maple, hickory, oak. Very little invasive understory. Through a lot of work we were able to preserve 20 acres to become a city park (it was a 40 acre plot), but it was pretty devastating to see them just bulldoze half the forest down with no second thought. If it wasn’t for a few of us getting ahead of this to preserve some of it, the whole thing would be gone. City management would’ve never even walked through the forest. They just would’ve looked at a green blob on a map and said “OK”. My daughter and the neighborhood kids used to run around the part of the forest that was removed and there was a massive white oak tree 67” DBH that the kids called the “magical oak tree”. When they bulldoze it over, the kids asked me why and the only answer I could give them was “the adults don’t know what they’re doing”.

I’ve worked for two different municipal forestry departments and both times my boss, the city Forester, never even walked through the city parks. I’d bring up certain trails and trees and they’d say “huh….I’ve never been back there”. This blew my mind that even those responsible for management didn’t even spend enough time to check it out.

 

[evo]

@oceans yes that would certainly be a end goal, one that we may never be able to obtain as a society. If there were massive shifts NOW it would still take generations to reach a homeostasis mindset.

 

[rico]

 

[macrocarpa]

 

[ATH]

I think what me creased about the idea of purely untouched forest being best (healthiest, etc…insert your favorite word) is that humans are also a part of an ecosystem, and to deny our part is to create an even greater disconnect from our deepest code. I am definitely not saying that we should all be out there with our own 3120s, feller bunchers and grapple yarders. I am saying that if we all had the same reverence for the place you just visited, perhaps all forests would closely resemble it. Call me an idealist, but wouldn’t all forests being healthy ecosystems that support the broadest range of life be better than trying to find ways to set aside a microscopic percentage of forests to be untouched while we decimate the rest into monoculture timber crops for harvest?

I agree that we need tos recognize we are part of the ecosystem...that means a lot of things. Like, it means we will have an impact. It also SHOULD mean we minimize that impact.

As to the question of setting aside a microscopic portion... I think the point is, that's all that is left so we should protect it. My degree is industrial forestry operations...and I'm not a preservationist, but a conservationists. But I do recognize there are just some special places.

As to forest plantations...if native species are being used, those are certainly not monocular. Yes they are more intensively managed, but they still function as a forest ecosystem. They also help meet demand with the land available for management.

Finally a thought on that "demand"...a land ethic isn't complete without a balanced consumption ethic. As long as we think we need more and more stuff, it is going to take more land to produce that...