Experience or Skill?

[Muggs]

There are thousands of people online, mostly on Facebag (which is why I stay away from it), who like to begin every conversation with some version of "I've been doing this for 30 years, blah blah blah." I immediately discount anything that they have to say about the current topic. In my experience, what they usually mean by this is that they learned some stuff 30 years ago, they've been doing it the same way ever since, it hasn't gotten them killed yet, so they must know what they're talking about. But based on personal experience, I'm just not convinced that the number of years under your belt translates directly into wisdom.

There is also the issue of job selection bias that doesn't really get talked about much. Most people in this trade are self employed, which means that they pick and choose which jobs they want to take on. Frequently we will gravitate towards the jobs we know we can tackle, and leave the ones we're not sure about for others to handle. Examples include very technical rigging scenarios, or nasty crane jobs, etc. The common anecdote about putting five thousand dollars on the jobs that we don't really want to get comes to mind. My point being, that if we go for years doing the jobs we know we can do, it's easy to start thinking that we're "good" at tree work. So yes, maybe you have 30 years of experience, but it's 30 years of doing the same types of jobs, in the same geographic region, in the same way that you learned when you started.

None of which is to say that 30 years experience is not valuable of course. But maybe it's not necessarily as valuable as some might think, or have you believe...

 

[southsoundtree]

@Keeth

How were the roots?

Were there absolutely no stubs?

I throwline over tiny, weak stubs, pulling the throw line to the trunk- side once the bag is past the bole in the air.
If you bring the throw line 180⁰ around the trunk, you can pull a rope in, if you counter-pressure the throw line against the pull rope both in the initial pull-in and the choking of the rope.

I double the throw line through the running bowline's eye for cinching, then remove the throw line before felling.

Alternately, tie a midline butterfly on the rope, putting the end of the rope through the butterfly for choking, like an SRS trunk choke with a pull-down leg.


This counterpressuring also keeps the cinching loop from catching on lower- than- the - choke- point stubs Which result in a poorly set pull-rope.

Really rotten ones need slow, steady finesse.

Way faster and safer than climbing.

If that doesn't make sense, I can add a video.

Judgment is related to knowledge, but is different, and requires experience to build.


There are things I have some knowledge of, but no experience.

Some people have some experience but little knowledge.

Both are required for sound judgment.

 

[Dan Thornton]

The confidence of amateurs is the envy of professionals.

Great line! Is that yours, or who should I give credit to?

 

[Muggs]

Not mine, I heard it many years ago

 

[Dan Thornton]

In education, there is difference between Knowledge, Understanding, Attitude, and Skill. (In education, experience is simply one of the steps necessary to learn a skill.)
Teaching methods are different depending on whether you are trying to teach for knowledge, understanding, attitude, or skill. For instance, the bowline.
If you want a student to KNOW the 'rabbit out of the hole, around the tree, and back in the hole' memory help, have them say it a couple times or have a nice drawing of a rope following the rabbit's antics. Few bother to teach the student to UNDERSTAND why the bowline is so effective while still so simple. For the student to be motivated (ATTITUDE) to use the bowline, we tell stories about that time when you were so surprised you could still untie the knot after a tremendous load and talk about how much time it saves over so many other complicated knots. To teach a SKILL is more complicated, involving five steps: let them see you tie a bowline in real time, break it up into specific steps, show them each step slowly, have them do each step with your guidance, have them practice doing it multiple times. That teaches the SKILL. Sorry about all the theory.

One of the biggest weaknesses in our industry is the lack of opportunities to be with people who are qualified and capable of teaching the skills. Here in Maryland one has to serve under a Tree Expert for three years before applying to become a Tree Expert. However, many tree experts couldn't teach anyone a skill. They can show how it's done, but many are incapable of breaking it down into learnable steps, and then don't have time to guide the student in the learning repetitions necessary to learn a skill. So we are left with a lot of knowledge and a lot of experiences, but without a safe skillful approach to the work.

Jeff Jepson has done a great service because his books present not only the knowledge but suggest the steps in thinking - the way to approach the work.

Arbormaster teaches the HOPE acronym as the briefing before starting every job. Discuss Hazards, Obstacles, the Plan, and the Equipment needed. It is a skill that must be practiced. It gets repetitive and sometimes boring, but it's a skill that keeps people safe. We all KNOW not to step in dangerous holes. We UNDERSTAND why that's important and we are MOTIVATED not to do so. But if we don't have the SKILL that includes starting every job looking for potential holes, then the best of us get sprained ankles.

 

[rico]

The confidence of amateurs is the envy of professionals.

A catchy phrase for sure but I have found that in this industry the opposite is more accurate. Pro‘s and people who have been in the game for awhile tend to operate with much more confidence (sometimes too much), while folk just getting started and/or part timers tend to operate with much more caution and trepidation.

 

[Daniel]

Those are some good examples... Gotta love a good story.
I learned how to tie a bowline early on.. that's knowledge... thowing the rope to set a running bowline in the top of a tree, or learning to tie one quickly is skill, and having watched a properly tied bowline pull through when lowering a big top because the knot wasn't backed up and the tail was too short is experience. Knowing where to set that running bowline when tying off a big limb, and how a but, near-balance, balance or tip tie will affect the movement of the piece, is a combination of knowledge and experience. Knowing the balance point on a limb is experience.

Learning to cut a proper notch and back cut per the book recommendations is knowledge. Developing the ability to cut them quickly and accurately is skill. Knowing how much a hinge can be trusted to hold against the side lean of any given tree is experience. Learning to vary the specs on a given notch to hold in a specific scenario and species is a combination of knowledge and experience. Learning how and when you can transcend the notch is mastery.

feel free to use that as you like.

 

[Keeth]

Thanks for the responses!

Sorry for the confusion. I realize I should have shared the definitions for Skill and Experience for my request first, then asked the question.

Experience- something personally encountered, undergone, or lived through

Skill- a learned power of doing something competently : a developed aptitude or ability

Here’s a chainsaw example: Let’s say you hire someone who has “years of experience running saws” but you observe them continuing to cut (or try to) after dulling the chain. They probably have the experience they claim, but demonstrate their lack of skill as a competent operator when they don’t recognize that something is wrong. You can help them learn by explaining how much harder it is on them and the saw. Some will resist the instruction because they’ve “always done it that way.” Those who respond positively and learn to stop cutting when the chain is dull have increased their skill level. Knowing what to to is one thing, doing it is another.

Other indicators of skill with a chainsaw: using a wedge when needed, applying a the right type of cut (bore, offset, salami, etc,) for the situation at hand, production felling, use of good positioning, … you get the picture.

What are you looking for in a skill set? Why do you ask for a specific person to run the rope when lowering a sketchy top? Odds are you’ll bypass the 20 year veteran who always locks it off in favor of the person who is skilled at “letting it run.”

Hopefully this brings clarity to my ask.