Employee longevity, pro's/ cons /recruitment

Jasonk said:
Have to disagree and maybe this changes from area to area. People here are lazy, feel self entitled and use the system as much as possible. No ones being forced to go to college and many who are going graduate with an education in something irrelevant to demand. Many come into our company with college degrees and no doubt it has helped them to form a general education but in all honesty the majority would be more valuable if they spent 2-4 years in the field hands on and were eager to learn. In no way am I saying that college is a negative thin g only that like anything, you get out what you put in and often its just an excuse to prolong the real world for a couple more years. We are constantly hiring entry level to skilled help and yet all I hear is that theres no jobs, people standing at intersections looking for donations and others just complaining. Very little drive to go get it anymore the vast majority feel like they are owed something.
Click to expand...

I can agree with your point as well. I just feel that my generation was "promised" a good paying job if you have a four year degree and the generation before was the opposite. A good technical job was better.
I think now we are starting to go back which I think is a good thing.
I was told by my dad to find a job that you use your brain to get paid and not physical labor. He has done tree work his entire life and his body was taking a toll. But my parents also taught me hard work. Which I think isn't taught today to our youth.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: evo
I don't think that anybody promised anyone anything, especially that unmarketable degrees get you a good and high paying job.


People need to watch less TV, and see the world more. There are not happy endings. Everyone dies at the end. Make what you want, while you're here.

I had advice given to me, go to work everyday (meaning FT, not 7 days a week), do your best at work.

Spend less than you earn. If you choose a job that pays $15/ hour, then probably no $5 fancy coffees, instead you bring a thermos.
 
Tr33Climb3r said:
I can agree with your point as well. I just feel that my generation was "promised" a good paying job if you have a four year degree and the generation before was the opposite. A good technical job was better.
I think now we are starting to go back which I think is a good thing.
I was told by my dad to find a job that you use your brain to get paid and not physical labor. He has done tree work his entire life and his body was taking a toll. But my parents also taught me hard work. Which I think isn't taught today to our youth.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
This is what I run into. When I was in HS(when I attended) there was a huge focus on the tech industry, and it was pounded into our heads that we needed a masters at the minimum to be successful. Fast forward 4-6 years later and in order to get a dish pig job you had to beat out 250 applicants the same day the job was announced (nearly all of which had BS, Masters, and even a few PHD’s). So much focus was pounded into us to be desk workers, no one taught my generation how to work. I really mean HOW to work, and use your body in a way that you safely and efficiently get the job done. Simple rules as ‘always have something in your hands, when you take a trip from the truck to the work site’, and ‘when you find yourself standing around, find something to do’, then ‘always think two steps ahead’
Simple lessons, but they need to be ingrained. I think if someone doesn’t pick these work habits up in there teens to mid twenties they will have too many bad habits to overcome.
 
Jasonk said:
Many come into our company with college degrees and no doubt it has helped them to form a general education but in all honesty the majority would be more valuable if they spent 2-4 years in the field hands on and were eager to learn.
Click to expand...

When my wife, a university prof, complains about her students I tell her to flunk them quickly and early before they graduate and take a job with my insurance company, or my bank, or the Department of Labor, or social services, or the courts, or anywhere else where another incompetent desk worker will make it that much harder for the folks trying to get things done with employees drawn from the concentrated pool of imbeciles and delinquents that the colleges leave for the blue collar world.
 
To me it seems obvious that an inability to find qualified workers is a sign that the compensation is too low as an industry. No one's getting a job and going to work for any reason other than to get paid, regardless of any work ethic you may have gained in whatever great generation you happened to be born into. If I'm a person that's motivated to succeed, capable of making sound decisions, and willing and able to learn, I'm going to pass over any job posting that asks me to bust my ass all day long for $15/hour. The fact that wages basically stagnate at $25/hour (reachable only after years and years of busting ass) is an even bigger red flag. Even if I'm a high school kid looking at tech school, I'm going to choose a field that demonstrates a career path with wages that might give me the chance to buy a house and retire someday, something like plumbing, electrician, carpentry, heavy machinery. Without a demonstrated career path with lifelong wages, we're only attracting folks that a) are genuinely stoked about trees and climbing them, folks which are obviously very few and far between, or b) someone looking for a job that can't find anything better.
 
NJC said:
To me it seems obvious that an inability to find qualified workers is a sign that the compensation is too low as an industry. No one's getting a job and going to work for any reason other than to get paid, regardless of any work ethic you may have gained in whatever great generation you happened to be born into. If I'm a person that's motivated to succeed, capable of making sound decisions, and willing and able to learn, I'm going to pass over any job posting that asks me to bust my ass all day long for $15/hour. The fact that wages basically stagnate at $25/hour (reachable only after years and years of busting ass) is an even bigger red flag. Even if I'm a high school kid looking at tech school, I'm going to choose a field that demonstrates a career path with wages that might give me the chance to buy a house and retire someday, something like plumbing, electrician, carpentry, heavy machinery. Without a demonstrated career path with lifelong wages, we're only attracting folks that a) are genuinely stoked about trees and climbing them, folks which are obviously very few and far between, or b) someone looking for a job that can't find anything better.
Click to expand...

Such a great post. I do believe its true. Being a federal unregulated industry of "unskilled" workers what do we expect. When do municipalities require you to pull a permit to work on the trees in your yard? Think about that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The reasons are many and complex. The previous generation made sacrifices to ensure their children had better opportunities for a good life. That translated into professional roles that required college education. It was also a point of pride that their kids made it to college. As the work world grew more complex and each employee was given more responsibility the need for better education in simple jobs grew. Where once you could get by with on the job experience, it wasn't enough. As restructuring and reengineering took hold in the workplace the job market was flooded with highly educated people competing for fewer jobs. Now employers had more options. Not that it meant the person with the degree got the job, that was often seen as being overqualified. It meant that having an college education was a better predictor of employability. However, it was oversimplified to degree=job. There was little comprehension of the importance of fundamental soft skills and business acumen.

The tech boom started the push toward computer related degrees with the siren song of skilled labor shortage in the tech industry to the tune of 500,000 openings. Yet, plenty graduates and experienced workers couldn't land a position. Something of a Goldilocks syndrome arose with employers wanting the one that was "just right" for them and willing to leave a job unfilled. Many of the people working in these companies would beg to differ about commitment to hardwork. They'll tell you about 100 hour work weeks, all-nighters, weekends, sleeping at their workstation, etc...

Having counseled and trained welfare recipients, I saw people struggling to gain or regain the dignity of being self-sufficient. Yet, they were confronted with a huge gap in making the leap from welfare to work. In an uncertain economy its extremely difficult to give up the benefits on welfare for uncertainty that you'll be able to move up the economic ladder and earn enough to cover basic living expenses, never mind anything that we take for granted in the way of discretionary expenditures.

Remember that the percentage often quoted of those that are on government assistance may not change but the people do. It's a flow through at a stubbornly persistent rate that reflects not laziness on the part of those that collect the benefits but the complete lack of loyalty corporations have towards their employees.

And that's another thing for many who are now entering the workforce and beginning careers. They watched their parents get kicked to the curb by their employers despite all the years of loyal devotion and sacrifice. They learned and had it regularly reinforced that loyalty gains nothing. Give only as much as you get. Be picky about who you'll work for because they will be equally, if not more so, picky about who works for them.

Parents raised this generation to be who they are. So, don't blame the kids for thinking the way they do. it's how we wanted them to be, whether we realized it or not.

You want someone to devote a lifetime to your business, give them a tangible reason to.
 
I do think there's a fat opportunity to find and to keep spectacular employees that are (a) naturally drawn to the unique and intrinsically interesting work that we do, (b) way too talented to max out at $25/hr, and (c) smart enough and balanced enough to be wary of starting tree businesses of their own. When I encounter these individuals I want to create openings for them. Doing it the other way around has been a frustration (starting with the problem--my trucks need repairs, I need a climber, etc.--and then searching for a good person to fix that problem). The good people are already busy. And so I'm looking for ways to structure my business so as to create highly attractive careers for the best people who cross my path. My happiest days are when I'm surrounded by quality, competent guys who are loving the job, freeing up to work along side them, doing any one of the many things that attract me to tree work.
 
Last edited:
JontreeHI said:
Unique mindset nish, seems like most employers are eager to perpetuate the status quo of wages not adding up to the cost of living. Starting to see companies offering into the low 30s here, but only just.
Maxing out the wage with no opportunity for growth beyond say a dollar a year raise won’t keep anybody ambitious for very long.
Click to expand...
It's a business-minded approach. Too many are completely unfamiliar with business beyond the "working for myself" mindset. As they see more and more work coming at them they react by buying productivity tools to improve how they alone can perform. Employees become necessary only when they realize they don't have enough hands, can't be in two or three places at once, operate equipment and still be in the tree doing the work, etc... They are reacting to their business not growing it.

Nish is doing it right by thinking about the culture of his company and how it functions. That's forward looking.
 
I think something us business owners have to understand is that it can be very hard to find good candidates who actually want to do this job and will not just do it for a paycheck, but also because they are passionate about it. I've always held the belief that if you have passion for something you are going to do it better. Your employees represent your business and you want them to care about the business just as much as you do. To create a scenario as an example here, understanding that if they decide they don't feel like coming in to work because they partied too hard the night before, not only does it affect the day's work it affects the whole week. If you are shorthanded and can't get as much done, then it's like a chain reaction. I would want an employee to care and not just have the attitude of: "it's not my business so I don't care." Employees who actually care about the business and who want to be better and help the team as a whole are a good asset.

When I first went through my hiring process some of the things I looked for were prior tree work experience, but also why they wanted the job, as well as the usual...physical fitness, etc. I also wanted someone I would be able to communicate with and eventually have thinking the same way as me when I'm up in the tree and they are on the ground. Needless to say my current groundsmen and I are able to think similar and I am able to ask him his opinion such as if I cut this branch here, from his perspective on the ground does it look like it may brush the roof, etc. And I feel confident enough asking my grounds person questions like this that are extremely important.

Most people might say they prefer someone that has prior tree experience but I think it can also be better in some instances to have a complete novice. Because this way you can train them to do things the way you want them to do them, and operate the way you and your team operate.
 
Interesting topic. I once had someone say to me full employment is around 95%. Once you get to a unemployment rate below 5%, you are starting to scrape the barrel. The people that are left when you get to 3-4% have issues that make them hard to employ. Not to say that they will not be good workers but the have personal problems that interfere with work. It may be drugs or alcohol. It may be not having reliable transportation or reliable child care. It may be that their housing situation is not stable or their partner has issues and they are trying to help them or they are taking care of an elderly parent. While they may want a job and can be a great employee, the external issues cause them not to be able to be employed for long. The solution to these issues are complex unless we as a society address them we will always have this problem once the UI rate drops below 5%.
 
Around here it’s lack of affordable housing, and high cost of living. A loft over a garage with shared bath (in the main house) is going for $1100 a month, first, last, and security deposit. The working class is being pushed elsewhere and the retired or elite are moving in.
 
Local tree market is ok, haven't ever been stressed for work, just stressed about getting to work... good enough for the big evil E-green to setup a shop and crew. I'm turning work down (fairly picky) and still booked nearly into 2018 (4 days wkly). Boat ride to the mainland is about 15min and another 10-15 to Everett, or closer for hwy 99 slime trail. Or you can go north and it's about 1-1.5 hrs to the peninsula (drive + boat) crappy thing with that route is a reservation system, so need 3 hrs notice (if there is room). I think Oak harbor has about 30K population and it's about 45min (navy town, where we keep the strip malls)
 
Selner Tree Office Dude said:
Interesting topic. I once had someone say to me full employment is around 95%. Once you get to a unemployment rate below 5%, you are starting to scrape the barrel. The people that are left when you get to 3-4% have issues that make them hard to employ.
Click to expand...
To some degree its true. 4% is often referred to the "natural" rate of unemployment. However, what is not usually stated is that the percentage is based on those that are jobless who can work and are actively seeking work. It is then the total of the employed and unemployed actively seeking work that count as being the labor force. (https://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm) If they are not looking they are not counted. Thus the number is a very fluid one.
During a transitional period where the economy is turning around the unemployment rate remains stubbornly high because more people are re-entering the labor force by seeking work actively.
Often the issues that make it harder for them to find work have as much to do with employers as it does employees. Once again the Goldilocks syndrome sets in and employers find reasons not to hire vs. ways in which to work thru issues to help those who show interest in working.
Greyston Bakery (https://greyston.org/) practices open hiring. That means they hire the next person who has put their name on the list, period. It means taking the time to set up a training and support program. Essentially open hiring is how the children of business owners enter the company. They are not interviewed but by simply showing interest in the business they are given the training and support to develop into productive employees. Greyston and companies like them just open that concept to anyone who is willing to take the first step, show up at their door and put your name on the list.
Maybe its time our industry look to ways to adopt this concept. We all know the industry already employs plenty of people considered undesirable to many others! Instead of investing more in hiring processes, spend more on training programs that elevate the skill and attitude of employees.

As for the dollars, that gets into the ability of the owners to properly calculate their bottomline by not just figuring in the need to spend items but also those items that would make it an attractive place to work. Instead of saying healthcare and other employee benefits are costly and thus not offered, build that into your cost structure. If we all did this we would be competing at a higher revenue point. Instead of going to our clients like beggar thankful of whatever they're willing to throw our way, we act the professional and demonstrate the value of our services at a rate that fairly compensates the business and it's employees.

It's up to us, to start making the improvements, finding the way to solve the problems faced, and put the pressure on our industry associations to step up their activities to better represent us in the marketplace. After all, it is us that make up the committees and executive of these associations.
 
Employee owned cooperative model is the way forward in my opinion. If you want an employee to be invested in your business, make them actually invested in your business.

One model was the very successful Boston area tree Co Hartney-Greymont. It was employee owned and the employees actually cared about the company! The straight up employee model seems broken and unnecessarily exploitative to this millennial.
 
Or everybody goes sub contractor. “I will make your business succeed because i also want my business to succeed.”
Similar to employee owned in the level of accountability/responsibility.
Ok, truthfully not a reasonable model, but can be great for many. Especially for someone who already owns climbing/rigging gear and saws.
 
What does that mean, Sean? Broken and unnecessarily exploitative.
SeanRuel said:
Employee owned cooperative model is the way forward in my opinion. If you want an employee to be invested in your business, make them actually invested in your business.

One model was the very successful Boston area tree Co Hartney-Greymont. It was employee owned and the employees actually cared about the company! The straight up employee model seems broken and unnecessarily exploitative to this millennial.
Click to expand...



How does this work? Does everyone put in $15k for company stock, and do an equal amount of work? Is there upper management and field workers?


How is it exploitative? My employees come to work, get paid for every minute they're there. I take on ALL real responsibility for their actions like they're my children. They go home and have nothing to think about except showing up ready for the next day of work, on time. They can leave any time they want. They can negotiate compensation. They get any safety gear they need/ want, and hella training.

I know that most people can't handle being their own bosses. Way too much responsibility and effort. They'd rather go home and have their personal lives.

Barriers to Entry are ridiculously low for starting a tree company. EASY for them to start up their own company with the training they get. Of course, its hard to run the company, just easy to start up.




Sean, what is your position, employee or owner?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Kask Stihl NORTHEASTERN Arborists Wesspur TreeStuff.com Teufelberger Westminster X-Rigging Teufelberger
Back
Top Bottom