double-whipping boy

howdy,

for obscure reasons I have never found a crystal-clear resource covering a negative rig double-whip setup with rings and/or blocks to control and lower large chunks down one face of an isolated stem. No doubt vids exist but alongside whatever you might link I would benefit from a pdf or photo file covering the knots and options between solo (canopy) operation or doing with ground crew using one or two bull ropes.

For context, the job ahead is a single 20 meter stem tight to an obstacle with a very small landing zone on a slant. I will be using rings.
Any help would be ... helpful.
cheers
 
Let me first say that Mr. Shutz is a stunningly good tree-man. Love watching him work.

To the OP. I have done a few double whipping jobs in the last couple years and have found that a block/ring combo works best for me...I found that an all ring setup put a little too much friction in the system for my liking.

Your scenario might also be a good candidate for a vertical speed-line.
 
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Let me first say that Mr. Shutz is a stunningly good tree-man. Love watching him work.

To the OP. I have done a few double whipping jobs in the last couple years and have found that a block/ring combo works best for me...I found that an all ring setup put a little too much friction in the system for my liking.

Your scenario might also be a good candidate for a vertical speed-line.
Yes, Shultz is the man. Will try the block/ring combo. Cheers
 
Let me first say that Mr. Shutz is a stunningly good tree-man. Love watching him work.

To the OP. I have done a few double whipping jobs in the last couple years and have found that a block/ring combo works best for me...I found that an all ring setup put a little too much friction in the system for my liking.

Your scenario might also be a good candidate for a vertical speed-line.
I agree. A ring on the piece a block on the tree is a nice mix of "abusabality" and function.

Tony
 
Legit work, but can someone confirm at 1:48 the lowering line is attached to a presumed lower device in the trees. Then the next shot the device is on the base. Am I missing something
 
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I just rewatched it a couple of times. I'm not positive what happened on that drop but I believe it was a tag line run through a redirect in another tree. Looks like both lowering line and any tag lines out to 2 min 45sec (I stpped there.)were run from the ground.

Lawrence will sometimes control a drift line from his position to tame down pieces but didn't see any of it there.
 
I just rewatched it a couple of times. I'm not positive what happened on that drop but I believe it was a tag line run through a redirect in another tree. Looks like both lowering line and any tag lines out to 2 min 45sec (I stpped there.)were run from the ground.

Lawrence will sometimes control a drift line from his position to tame down pieces but didn't see any of it there.
At 2:24 you can clearly see th lowering line on the log, through the ring and into the trees to a presumed device. Side loading the spar. 2:32 shows it best also 1:41
 
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Let me first say that Mr. Shutz is a stunningly good tree-man. Love watching him work.

To the OP. I have done a few double whipping jobs in the last couple years and have found that a block/ring combo works best for me...I found that an all ring setup put a little too much friction in the system for my liking.

Your scenario might also be a good candidate for a vertical speed-line.
Yes if there is a small area at the base that will allow impact vertical speed line is good. Basically bombing wood with a leash. Negative rigging big wood is usually my last choice. Even if i need to make twice the cuts to bomb it I feel it is quicker and easier.
 
At 2:24 you can clearly see th lowering line on the log, through the ring and into the trees to a presumed device. Side loading the spar. 2:32 shows it best also 1:41
He is definitely running his lowering line to a device which is attached to another distant tree (1:40, 1:50, 2:25). Gonna add some lateral forces for sure, but its hard to argue with his results..He is clearly a thinking mans tree-man who does things for a reason. Lessening bend radius on lowering line? Keeping his groundie well clear of the bomb zone? Ground at base of tree too steep to work on? Would love to hear his thoughts on this setup.
 
I just rewatched it a couple of times. I'm not positive what happened on that drop but I believe it was a tag line run through a redirect in another tree. Looks like both lowering line and any tag lines out to 2 min 45sec (I stpped there.)were run from the ground.

Lawrence will sometimes control a drift line from his position to tame down pieces but didn't see any of it there.

He is definitely running his lowering line to a device which is attached to another distant tree (1:40, 1:50, 2:25). Gonna add some lateral forces for sure, but its hard to argue with his results..He is clearly a thinking mans tree-man who does things for a reason. Lessening bend radius on lowering line? Keeping his groundie well clear of the bomb zone? Ground at base of tree too steep to work on? Would love to hear his thoughts on this setup.
My take is the ground is too steep to to deal with the device at the base, easily fixed by a redirect. Groundie would be well out of the way. Bend radius on 5/8-3/4 line through block or even ring dont see an issue, double the ring. For me side loading while negative rigging big wood, for me a no no. My argument here is good results dont insure future good results. IMO this is unnecesary. I am always open to a reasonable explaination as I wasnt there. I really appreciate the discussions here as I believe some of the best tree people in the world converse here. Full respect to Mr Shultz, just discussing what I see.
 
@Merle Nelson got my attention, made me remember i had an account, ha! it's been awhile.
anyways, Im not trying to hijack the thread but people had questions so i'm going to try to describe this job, the challenges and hopefully that'll explain why we did what we did:
so it was 2 Doug Fir spars about 100ft tall (& 30" at that height) x ~50"dbh on a very steep hill above the road, house, etc etc. The Co had permission to leave all of the wood up on the hill chained together if they could get it laid nice and secure (yeah, don't ask me man, i only work here :rolleyes:). So they want me to rig as much wood as possible uphill. Apparently the previous climber limbed them up and dumped a big top into the rigging to the other spar and snapped a 3/4" sooo the groundies refused to set up underneath the trees (that and it was veeery steep and muddy, i basically had to crawl up the hill). The first spar (as seen in the vid) was the easier of the two, just drift logs to the other spar uphill using two ropes and two lowering devices.The one Lowering Device had to go on a tree up the hill. Yes, this sideloaded the spar, a bad move. What we should have done was a redirect at the base to another tree then down into the LD but a true 100ft stick means a maxed out 200ft rope which is all they had & all i had as well so not enough rope for that. BUT these are big solid spars and the LD is uphill from the lean and (despite the fish eye view) the angle was shallow till we got lower. On the first tree this was also only the drift line. Now the 2nd spar was harder. We straight neg rigged it. 1:48, 2:09, 2:48 you can kind of see the set up. The neg rig line, the LD uphill on another tree and a 2nd line as a pull line + it goes thru a pulley uphill to a truck to yard it up the hill after the groundie was done letting it run. So that's the kind of whacky shit you get to walk into blindly, inadequately prepared for, working for unreasonable people who have no clue if it's even possible to do what they promised the client, lacking the right gear and skilled labor. So, anyone wanna come to the Bay, i got tons more work :)
 
@Merle Nelson got my attention, made me remember i had an account, ha! it's been awhile.
anyways, Im not trying to hijack the thread but people had questions so i'm going to try to describe this job, the challenges and hopefully that'll explain why we did what we did:
so it was 2 Doug Fir spars about 100ft tall (& 30" at that height) x ~50"dbh on a very steep hill above the road, house, etc etc. The Co had permission to leave all of the wood up on the hill chained together if they could get it laid nice and secure (yeah, don't ask me man, i only work here :rolleyes:). So they want me to rig as much wood as possible uphill. Apparently the previous climber limbed them up and dumped a big top into the rigging to the other spar and snapped a 3/4" sooo the groundies refused to set up underneath the trees (that and it was veeery steep and muddy, i basically had to crawl up the hill). The first spar (as seen in the vid) was the easier of the two, just drift logs to the other spar uphill using two ropes and two lowering devices.The one Lowering Device had to go on a tree up the hill. Yes, this sideloaded the spar, a bad move. What we should have done was a redirect at the base to another tree then down into the LD but a true 100ft stick means a maxed out 200ft rope which is all they had & all i had as well so not enough rope for that. BUT these are big solid spars and the LD is uphill from the lean and (despite the fish eye view) the angle was shallow till we got lower. On the first tree this was also only the drift line. Now the 2nd spar was harder. We straight neg rigged it. 1:48, 2:09, 2:48 you can kind of see the set up. The neg rig line, the LD uphill on another tree and a 2nd line as a pull line + it goes thru a pulley uphill to a truck to yard it up the hill after the groundie was done letting it run. So that's the kind of whacky shit you get to walk into blindly, inadequately prepared for, working for unreasonable people who have no clue if it's even possible to do what they promised the client, lacking the right gear and skilled labor. So, anyone wanna come to the Bay, i got tons more work :)
Thanks for chiming in and laying out the scenario for us. I for one appreciate the fact that you walked into another outfits mess and made it happen, despite the less than stellar support and lack of some longer rigging lines. Much respect.

I just noticed that you are in the Bay Area.. Curious where these Firs were, if ya don't mind me asking....
 
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@Merle Nelson got my attention, made me remember i had an account, ha! it's been awhile.
anyways, Im not trying to hijack the thread but people had questions so i'm going to try to describe this job, the challenges and hopefully that'll explain why we did what we did:
so it was 2 Doug Fir spars about 100ft tall (& 30" at that height) x ~50"dbh on a very steep hill above the road, house, etc etc. The Co had permission to leave all of the wood up on the hill chained together if they could get it laid nice and secure (yeah, don't ask me man, i only work here :rolleyes:). So they want me to rig as much wood as possible uphill. Apparently the previous climber limbed them up and dumped a big top into the rigging to the other spar and snapped a 3/4" sooo the groundies refused to set up underneath the trees (that and it was veeery steep and muddy, i basically had to crawl up the hill). The first spar (as seen in the vid) was the easier of the two, just drift logs to the other spar uphill using two ropes and two lowering devices.The one Lowering Device had to go on a tree up the hill. Yes, this sideloaded the spar, a bad move. What we should have done was a redirect at the base to another tree then down into the LD but a true 100ft stick means a maxed out 200ft rope which is all they had & all i had as well so not enough rope for that. BUT these are big solid spars and the LD is uphill from the lean and (despite the fish eye view) the angle was shallow till we got lower. On the first tree this was also only the drift line. Now the 2nd spar was harder. We straight neg rigged it. 1:48, 2:09, 2:48 you can kind of see the set up. The neg rig line, the LD uphill on another tree and a 2nd line as a pull line + it goes thru a pulley uphill to a truck to yard it up the hill after the groundie was done letting it run. So that's the kind of whacky shit you get to walk into blindly, inadequately prepared for, working for unreasonable people who have no clue if it's even possible to do what they promised the client, lacking the right gear and skilled labor. So, anyone wanna come to the Bay, i got tons more work :)
Thank you for your time and willingness to discuss.
 
Thanks for chiming in and laying out the scenario for us. I for one appreciate the fact that you walked into another outfits mess and made it happen, despite the less than stellar support and lack of some longer rigging lines. Much respect.

I just noticed that you are in the Bay Area.. Curious where these Firs were, if ya don't mind me asking....
tis the life of a contract climber. the freedom seems very appealing to some, especially the youngsters, the grass looks greener but they must remember the reality of the situation. there is no calvary, you gotta work with what you got. you back down cuz the situation is less than perfect then no pay for you and most likely that Co doesn't use you anymore, maybe others too cuz word gets around. not putting it down and not promoting it either btw, it is what it is and it's not for everyone.
the spars were in a little area near San Geronimo and Woodacre just north of Fairfax. seemed to be a few big ol healthy Firs getting near 200ft
 

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