Descending a static line....

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With these 2 posts Ive been agreeing with the idea of the hitch as a back up with something else to take the friction. Now after Jamins post it hit me I do this on a regular basis when doing removals. I use a monkey tail when working spars down. I simply use a munter hitch and descend. It is quick and simple.
 
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Thirdly, show me one piece of literature that shows where any hitch is suitable for descent.


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LMAO well with that said, I guess we are supposed to not use any climbing knots at all, and just use descenders and ascenders. You do know your reaching for ways to back your argument, but thats cool. It made me do some homework myself seems you can't really find any back except for caving as a backup descender should you drop your fancy one. But I did find you a nice little read should you want to learn alittle bout ropes and hitches.

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/FCRR-JD-0402.pdf/$FILE/FCRR-JD-0402.pdf
 
Monkey tailing is the only SRT descent I've done. I feel safe when hanging off just my friction hitch, but it doesn't work well for descending. Last week I tried the Gri Gri with the monkey tail which made a cleaner, more functional setup.
 
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Thirdly, show me one piece of literature that shows where any hitch is suitable for descent.


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LMAO well with that said, I guess we are supposed to not use any climbing knots at all, and just use descenders and ascenders. You do know your reaching for ways to back your argument, but thats cool. It made me do some homework myself seems you can't really find any back except for caving as a backup descender should you drop your fancy one. But I did find you a nice little read should you want to learn alittle bout ropes and hitches.

http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/FCRR-JD-0402.pdf/$FILE/FCRR-JD-0402.pdf

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Good link! But it still lacks what Im looking for.

And no, hitches are plenty suitable for ascending and Ddrt climbing and positioning. But not for descending.
As far as me looking to back my argument, despite what is found, I still will not find it acceptable to descend on a hitch.

Thanks for schooling me though, as I did just fall of the turnip truck, so naturally I have no idea what Im talking about.
 
i think it is mechanically incorrect to descend a single line only with a hitch. Unless it is 2 single lines, then y have to do it just right. Even a hitch and friction device has to be done just right(loading and moving both together) IMLHO. The amount of heat and abuse the line takes is too much. Need a heat sink for SRT to drain heat away and not chew up line.
 
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Ever try using a biner tied into your hitch. It's a trick cavers do if they have to decend on just a hitch.

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I have been a caver with an interest in vertical work for over 40 years. I have never seen anyone using a carabiner inside a hitch like that. I have heard anyone talk about or write it up in a newsletter. I will admit that I do not know all cavers in the US. Some cavers will do a short rappel with a Munter hitch.

I have seen pictures of a carabiner inside a friction hitch in a couple of knot books. This idea was taken from Bill March's book, Modern Rope Techniques. March claimed that the carabiner makes the hitch easier to move. I and Gary Storrick have the same opinion about it -- Why?

I would not descend on a hitch because of heating and melting. Nylon on nylon produces melt abrasion, where melted particles from the hotter rope stick to the cooler rope. I have seen someone saw through a nylon rope with another rope.
 
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I would not descend on a hitch because of heating and melting. Nylon on nylon produces melt abrasion, where melted particles from the hotter rope stick to the cooler rope. I have seen someone saw through a nylon rope with another rope.


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hence the reason we don't use walmart nylon rope to climb with. Not making fun of yea but that comment there was just silly. Do we have guys anymore that climb on Nylon? We are talking about using high heat cords.

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March claimed that the carabiner makes the hitch easier to move. I and Gary Storrick have the same opinion about it -- Why?

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exactly!!!! Ummm easier to move means less friction, biner also help disapate heat from ropes. After all I said it was a trick cavers do I didn't suggest that it is intended to replace descenders.

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I would not descend on a hitch because of heating and melting.

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bet you would if you dropped your descender and thats all you had!!. Or a better use is a short little pop in nice grease mud, I always love to put my 100 $$ toys in the mud and grime, yea right not when I got a 5 dollar biner and 7 dollar cord. Besides I don't think there would be a book written on this as of yet, it's a new style. But for the most part we anit talking about someone blazing out 150 of single rope as fast as he can, we are talking about working the tree right.
 
'The Book' on current SRT rope movement hasn't been written.

After getting the first edition of 'On Rope' March's book was the second. Those two books started me on my SRT Quest. Along the way I've read lots and experimented with many rope/cord/tool combos.

Now, there are fantastic blends of synthetic rope that have the potential to re-write 'the book' on friction hitches. Already, these cords are advancing DdRT movement. Using them on SRT is a frontier. Who knows how the new book will read?

Something that I've found when using a friction hitch while SRT tree climbing is that descent is slow and herky jerky. There were a couple of rope/cord combos that I abandoned before they made it off the ground, during the 'Low and Slow' stage of the testing, because they didn't grab. If they passed, none descended smoothly. Once my weight was on any of the hitch/cords combos they locked down dang tight. In my testing I was never concerned about taking a grounder. Having stopper knots made sure of that but the hitch would only slide if I put all of my weight on it to try and get a release.

Of course, everyone's 'mileage will vary'. The variables are too hard to control to say that anything goes.
 
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Once my weight was on any of the hitch/cords combos they locked down dang tight. In my testing I was never concerned about taking a grounder.

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Well put Tom

March claimed that the carabiner makes the hitch easier to move. With that said, I would give you 2 knots of my favorite choose, for you to try out on single rope. That would be the RBS and the Helick tie a biner into either of these knots and you will see that it becomes much easier to descend or ascend. Worth a try right before you shoot it down, you will find the herk jerk tends to go away.
 
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Some cavers will do a short rappel with a Munter hitch.

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Easily my favorite knot...

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You guys are killing me here. Do you know how much time and effort is put in to designing ropes? It is just mean to use a munter hitch on a regular basis. It's primary friction is rope-on-rope. Know it, understand it, use it when necessary. But the use of a rappelling device will be much kinder on your rope for regular use.

Dave
 
You bet.

Body weight is alot for it. Twists bad.

Never noticed too much rope wear.

I did a friends tree up north and used a 10.5 mm rock rope to lower.

Smooth as glass.

I lower 20, 30, 40 lbs. off it, Killer control from any angle.

I let it run too, stoppin' it could kink a rope.

Just for fun,

I wouldn't use it on a job...
 
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...hence the reason we don't use walmart nylon rope to climb with. Not making fun of yea but that comment there was just silly. Do we have guys anymore that climb on Nylon? We are talking about using high heat cords.

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Walmart nylon and arborist polyester have the same melting point. A hot descender or a hot friction hitch can cause surface melting of the main rope whether it is nylon or polyester.

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...exactly!!!! Ummm easier to move means less friction, biner also help disapate heat from ropes. After all I said it was a trick cavers do I didn't suggest that it is intended to replace descenders.

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And this is the other half of the equation: dissipation. It is not true that easier to move means less friction. A good descender is easy to move, but it consumes the same amount of energy during a 10-foot descent, through friction, as a jerky hard-to-manage friction knot. It dissipates the heat far better, which means you can descend faster without reaching the melting point of your rope than you could on a hitch, even if the hitch cord is made of heat-resistant material.

I have descended on a hitch, which I consider safe enough, but it was very slow and difficult.

There is a bit of a dissipation-related safety factor in using a metal descender. Because of the rapid flow of heat through the metal body, the whole thing is always roughly at the same temperature. This means when it first gets too hot to touch, which would be well below the boiling point of water, the inner surface contacting the rope would not be much hotter and would not be endangering the rope. With a knot, on the other hand, there could be a large temperature differential between the inner and outer surfaces, so you would not get such an early warning of imminent overheating.
 
I don't think it's UN-safe, just less safe. It's also a bitch to lower once the knot gets tight. Why not just use an eight, people have been using them without a backup for decades now. It won't hockle your rope any worse than a VT or a Distel.

I'm guessing the ultimate solution for SRT work climbing will be mechanical.
 
try the F8 revolver guys. I want some feedback on it from other people who have worked with it. I really think it is a solution for working SRT with a friction hitch. Its all I have been climbing on for the past month. It is a whole lot cheaper than anything mechanical too.
 
it does go up and down. you only have to take it off if you are acending 100% rope only. I rarely take it off during a climb as usually at least 50% of my weight is on the tree, the F8 rev just slides up when you need to climb. In a normal climb its on 90% of the time.

when you say "better than what we do now" what do you mean? Ddrt? to me I'm not sure, its debateable. I cant decide if Im climbing on it because its superior or i like the novelty of working SRT.

As far as other srt devices go I dont know ive never tried it.

I can say it is far superior to anyother method of climbing SRT with a friction hitch that I have seen or heard of. Try it.
 
did I mention you can slide it up the rope with one hand? if you are working a spar like allmark with a munter hitch or an eight, you have to take it off if you want to go up the rope at all. With this technique, you can climb the spar and tend the F8 revolver with not much more effort than tending your hitch in Ddrt.

If I could get a patent on this device and sell it, I would. The problem is that most of you already have everything you need.
 
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