Dead (and Undead) Wood

One of the things about having long posts is that you'll invariably leave your flank exposed somewhere for someone to chew on.

I should be a better writer, I won't argue about that, but I did come to the reluctant conclusion that perhaps no matter how well I parsed a piece, a surprising number of people would not read the words. I actually spent some time researching and then writing about the inherent difficulties in talking about something new.

It didn't have so much to do with me or my skills as an author, or even my personality; it turned out to be an internal human defense mechanism that is very important and at the same time very subtle.

For those of you familiar with computer-drafting programs there is a tool known as, "snap to grid". When selected, it sets a grid with a scale of your choosing behind the drawing surface. If for example, you are drawing a line and ending it, that end immediately goes to the closest grid mark. Its usefulness is keeping the drawn dimensions all coordinated to a scale that you've set.

If I'm drawing a house, all lumber will come out to the same length by the scale that I've set, rather than some precision point where I simply stopped the line. it's great for modular thinking and drawing, and it's irritating when you forgot to turn it off and it drags something you've drawn off to some hidden grid point.

--------------------

I'm not evading responding to the responses, I just thought I'd prep my audience with another mind exercise I hope helps digest the gnarly ball all of thinking differently.

let's say you go up to someone and want to discuss something you've been thinking about, and it seems to you to be a new perspective that contains some new facts that you'd like to share. So you start to talk using the same words in generally a familiar context, but it doesn't match the conventional thinking or explanations.

For your listener, snap to grid is engaged and uses the grid references of what he has been taught or what he has learned by experience.

Once his snap to grid is in turned on, the attempted discussion is pulled over to his personal grid points,and you can literally explain for a very long time without it ever being comfortable or even tolerable.

Even if that person is seriously trying to listen, snap to grid is so powerful an internal protective mechanism that a new perspective might never be hearable. That is not a criticism of the person, it is what we do all the time every day. Snap to grid keeps us safe; if it's not familiar, we are cautious. Snap to grid keeps us knowledgeable; we can discuss things in the familiar context of our grid references. Snap to grid buys us time while we consider; we don't simply leap at every offered opportunities or take risks of various types.

When we come out of school, our grids are fairly well defined and sharp; they ought to be the leading edge of academic knowledge, and for some people that arrogant grid-assurance will stay for all their lives without changing anything. Others have their grids gently shaped and changed by life experiences, or sometimes even epiphanal moments.

Snap to grid is a big-time determinant that runs a lot of our life at some time or another, and is sometimes irrelevant when placed against more important issues.

Going back to discussing something new with someone whose grid does not include your new specific position between four of his established points, they might appear to him that you're speaking gibberish or at the least missing the truth of what is common knowledge.

Whether or not we want it, snap to grid is there and snap to grid is an obstacle to thinking outside the box, because it is indeed the box.

I personally enjoy new considerations and new perspectives, and I will admit too many times having my own snap to grid interfere with my listening. That's why I say I make a point of personal professional discipline to try to listen; it sometimes forces me to stick around long enough to be kicked in the [bad word] by an epiphany.

Bob Wolfowitz
 
See,

"it sometimes forces me to stick around long enough to be kicked in the arse by an epiphany."

Snap to grid is everywhere, and tried to help keep an old man from being naughty. But slippery curmudgeon that I am, I used another word in a foreign language.

Huffalump
 
Thanks Bob.

I have really enjoyed reading your posts.

I hoped by starting this thread (trap) people would bring up all the "old" reasons for deadwood removal. You've really explained/argued my original point very well.

Tom
 
[ QUOTE ]


I hoped by starting this thread (trap) people would bring up all the "old" reasons for deadwood removal. You've really explained/argued my original point very well.

Tom

[/ QUOTE ]


Remember Dr. Shigo writing about the lazy loggers of several centuries ago, and how their smaller cuts produced better quality lumber?


In some cases, old research (or old results) reveals the same results as new research. The goal of research should never be to produce new, or old, but to determine what works.

Or better said, not "just" to produce new or old, since new is always welcome and often needed.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I hoped by starting this thread (trap) people would bring up all the "old" reasons for deadwood removal. You've really explained/argued my original point very well.

Tom

[/ QUOTE ]


Remember Dr. Shigo writing about the lazy loggers of several centuries ago, and how their smaller cuts produced better quality lumber?


In some cases, old research (or old results) reveals the same results as new research. The goal of research should never be to produce new, or old, but to determine what works.



[/ QUOTE ]

We don't need to go back several centuries, we need only to look at the time since the invention of the chainsaw. Before then, the saw cuts were manual and fatigue determined a great deal of how much pruning was done in a tree. Alex pointed out that this unavoidable restraint revealed some subtle effects in the responses of trees. He then connected those results into a better understandings of tree care.

But please remember that turning out better quality lumber is not tree care and it was Alex's genius to take the clues from a walnut buyer and transmute them into his expanded concepts of tree growth.

----------------

Chainsaws and bucket trucks changed this industry significantly and we need to recognize (admit) that legacy. On one hand, we had greater access and increased efficiencies in the removal of limbs and wood. We also set the scene for increased profits and steady employment. Those are realities, but there is an inherent slippery slope of replacing conscious tree care with how much wood is put in the chipper. I do understand and have many mixed feelings about the tensions, ethical and practical, and I won't be around for that resolution; in fact, it probably will go on until we run out of trees and fish in the near future.

--------------

I enjoy finding things in the shadows, which may be a fundamental force in research. Our world abounds in factoids that may be quite true, but we don't know how to connect them. Part of what I'd like to contribute is the joining of elements and biological facts that can be a better road map to what we claim we do.

That does require me to be quarrelsome sometimes and have the stamina to continue my chattering in a digestible way that might intrigue others and have them looking in the shadows as well. I don't claim a special knowledge and fully anticipate that things I may start would be carried forward by younger people flushed with their own energy and relatively unafraid by virtue of their youth.

Yes, this is a hop, skip and a jump away from deadwood, but in a forum I used to run, the authors found new skills in writing and became confident in thinking aloud. The value in this site is exactly the same. Write what you think should be written, but also read with a hopeful flexibility that can move us all out of snap to grid.

The goal of research is undefinable; it is what we bring to it at any given moment in the timeline of contributors who choose the world of trees. The people who post here take a part of their day to share what they think. The real value is in their honesty as well as their flexibility.

I'll defend the old with a great deal of energy, but I will not defend misinformation and unfounded repetitions that appear to be true because that's all we've heard. We don't need new research to prune out poor explanations. Sometimes things just fall apart naturally, when we look at them closely.



Bob Wulkowicz
 
[ QUOTE ]
I hoped by starting this thread (trap) people would bring up all the "old" reasons for deadwood removal.

[/ QUOTE ]The reasons Mario detailed so well--faster wound closure, more light, more air movement, less load, less infection moving to the parent--are old reasons, yes. They are also current reasons, and they will also be good reasons in the future.

We'll re-snap them to the new grid as it forms, maybe discarding some, maybe adding some new ones. The fact remains that while arboriculture may be informed by old-growth forest management, it must by definition focus more on tree health and stability.

Thanks for the exercise of evading that toothless trap.
smile.gif
 
if a dead branch falls out of a tree and boinks your child on the head, you might be more inclined to cut the dad-burned thing down & get rid of it before someone else gets hit.
So if we are reducing the risk of someone getting hurt by a dead branch, and in the process making the trees less likely to cause someone to want to cut them down...
then we are directly contributing to the health and longevity of trees in the human environment.
maybe trees are co-evolving with humans as we choose which ones to keep or cut down. Those with less deadwood (whether removed by humans or not) might have an edge over the trees with big-[bad word] hangers over the house.
I was at the Biltmore in Asheville a few weeks ago & heard Neville Faye's talk & it makes alot of sense for areas where humans are not apt to linger. But as for Urban trees... I agree with guy mayor - in the zero target areas its cool - and even encouraged to leave dead trees dead wood etc.. for habitat. But in yards and landscaped areas where people & animals hang out - even a small diameter branch falling from 40 feet up can give a 3 year old kid a headache - or worse!
On a smaller scale, I have seen arborvitae so choked up through the interior with deadwood & dead foliage that mold & insects were rampant & the tree was certainly suffering "biologically". Once we cleaned all that noxious crap out the trees began to regrow some interior foliage, wind & sun were able to dry up the trapped moisture and the trees began to thrive.
 
[ QUOTE ]

maybe trees are co-evolving with humans as we choose which ones to keep or cut down.

[/ QUOTE ]hmm, good points...arborists facilitate the coexistence of trees and people, playing a big part in this co-evolution.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Arborists are breeders!
cool.gif


jp
grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

They certainly are. I'll look around and see if I can find an old essay I wrote about a "Chainsaw Moratorium for Arbor Day."



Bob Hefalump
 
There are probably not too many instances where removing deadwood (or "symplastless wood", as someone frustratingly insists on calling it) has a direct biological benefit. I can imagine a few instances where it has a future biological benefit, such as a decay-prone species with a large tear or heading cut with multiple sprouts around the decaying center; allowing quicker closure can increase the development of structure around the wound, supporting the developing limbs better. Somethin' like that.

As to "A thriving tree ought to have everything alive.", I'll have to agree with others that say many trees can be thriving with deadwood.
 
[ QUOTE ]
...Was deadwooding necessary to the success of the tree or did deadwood in the canopy create a problem for the tree? ...You've opened up a whole different world of arboricultural practices that we are yet to wrap our heads around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi! This is my first post at Tree Buzz. I'm a new Recreational Tree Climber (RTC). I've seen posted elsewhere on the internet, with at least general regard to deadwooding, that pruning advocates do so based on the following qualifiers, known by some as the "Five D's":
o Dead
o Damaged [Oops!
blush.gif
#6 added to the "Five"]
o Diseased
o Deformed
o Duplicate
o Downward
This thread, not to be hi-jacked, contains truly thought-provoking contributions on the subject of deadwooding, as well as how trees themselves deal with elements no longer contributing to the tree organism, for which I'm thankful.

My hopefully thread-related question is: Is it currently acceptable for RTC'ers to remove "qualified" elements of the tree they're climbing based on any or all of the above criteria, or are some of the above Ds for aesthetics only?

If this post belongs in its own thread, I'd understand.

Your recommendations are taken to heart.
Safe climbing!
 
My feelings on this: if you are climbing trees that belong to yourself, friends or relatives and you understand the five D's, go for it, if that is what you and/or your friends, etc. want.

If you are rec climbing on public, forested land you should adher to the same principals as back country camping. That means "leave no trace". No cuts, no scuffed bark, no impact. This will give future rec climbers the same joys and difficulties you encountered.

Dave
 
Thanks, DMSc! I will definitely act to align with "Leave No Trace" considerations in wilderness climbing and all locations other than my own beloved backyard grove for that matter.

My own property is fairly densely populated with ~70-80' trees. My house is carefully placed among them. Until I eventually build a shed, I will deadwood at my place as I recently had a branch fall from ~50' that punched a hole through the deck of my fiberglass sailboat, an unfortunate non-biological target.

~*~

Yesterday, I climbed 50' a red oak that grows, arching over my backyard deck. While aloft, I brushed the buff-colored gypsy moth egg sacks off the trunk below the main stem and I reached out to wiggle a 6'x 3" deadwood specimen. It broke away in my hand almost without effort. It may have been scheduled to fall that day, possibly damaging a dogwood in the understory area. That same day, 80' away, a 12' x 4" deadwood specimen fell with a resounding crash onto my neighbor's walkway. The family drove in the driveway minutes later. Recent heavy rains may have influenced the breakaways, or so it seems. I thrive in that forested environment, thankful for the shade and oxygen, but have made a determination to advance the deadwood pruning on my property, for my own welfare. I understand that I should not flush-cut. I hope to learn more about how to deadwood to maximize ANY tree-biology benefit that cautious, respectful technique can be proven to bring.

Incredibly insightful thread!

~*~

Oops! My apologies to everyone for including six items in my listing of the "Five D's". I put the list of six together for myself to distinguish between deformed and damaged, the latter of which was missing from the internet reference I found. I neglected to revert what I posted to the original five.
 
Cool thread! At the end of the day much of what arborists do to trees is for the customer, not the tree.

No way nit picking deadwood in any species is a good thing for anything other than aesthetics. So where do you draw the line on what is for tree health and what is for people who don't like to see birds, etc in their trees?

Most people need a psychiatrist, not an arborist. Trees know how to take care of themselves - more than can be said for people.

santa.gif
 

New threads New posts

Kask Stihl NORTHEASTERN Arborists Wesspur TreeStuff.com Teufelberger Westminster X-Rigging Teufelberger
Back
Top Bottom