Circle of Death

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Great discussion, I agree climb high and take smaller pieces. I missed this discussion before and thought I would bring it up again. Good cutting technique is a life saver.

Lonnie

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I agree with "learning good cutting technique" and disagree with "climb higher"... A good faller knows what he can and can't get away with.. there are other cuts to use besides the "bore cut & back release"... Certainly BC&BR should be honed as a skill and every advanced climber should be able to do it in the spikes, from either side, with big or little stems, and know how to vary the cut based on species and lean etc.

You have to practice this stuff on the ground till you have complete mastery. I hear guys that love to pat themselves on the back for being so good at tree work, that don't use the BC&BR (at least not much). Worse than that they dump on those of us that use it, like there is something wrong with the cut.. Mouthy ignoramuses... the bore cut and back release creates a whole new level of possibilities when you know you can trust it..

If you really know how to cut, you don't need to climb higher.. When I hear someone call me lazy for not climbing higher, I know he doesn't know how to cut. AND he's so ignorant, he'd rather call me lazy or lucky than admit he simply lacks skills!


LOL... that's kicking the hive again huh?
 
The circle of death can just as easily happen on large horizontal side limbs, not just on spars.
 
Daniel,

I am a novice in my cutting technique and definetly need to stay open to learning. I hope I never figure it all out.

Grover, that is an excellent point and one i had not thought of.
 
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It would be a good time to have a cut-able link on your lanyard if you're using a steel core.

Something releasable under load would be good, as well (i.e. a friction hitch rather than a gibbs-type ascender).

Best is to mitigate the situation in the other ways presented, though the cut-able link is important for rescue.

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A full reving saw will cut right through a steel core with pressure on it.
 
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Great discussion, I agree climb high and take smaller pieces. I missed this discussion before and thought I would bring it up again. Good cutting technique is a life saver.

Lonnie

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I agree with "learning good cutting technique" and disagree with "climb higher"... A good faller knows what he can and can't get away with.. If you really know how to cut, you don't need to climb higher.. When I hear someone call me lazy for not climbing higher, I know he doesn't know how to cut. AND he's so ignorant, he'd rather call me lazy or lucky than admit he simply lacks skills!

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Daniel, I think that you are missing Ed Hobbs point and mine when we say, when in doubt “climb higher.” This is primarily geared to the newer climbers who haven’t gained the confidence or skills that a good faller has in knowing what he can and can’t get away with as you have pointed out.

Obviously, you have the knowledge to take bigger cuts without having to go higher, but I would still encourage a new climber to go higher and take a smaller piece, if they are unsure.
 
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The circle of death can just as easily happen on large horizontal side limbs, not just on spars.

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So what cut(s) do you use on big horizontal limbs to prevent them from splitting?
 
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[quote

It would be a good time to have a cut-able link on your lanyard if you're using a steel core.

Something releasable under load would be good, as well (i.e. a friction hitch rather than a gibbs-type ascender).

Best is to mitigate the situation in the other ways presented, though the cut-able link is important for rescue.

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A full reving saw will cut right through a steel core with pressure on it.

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If I have any concern that big wood is going to split, the piece gets whipped with a piece of old 1/2" line. In extreme conditions, it gets ratchet straps... If there is a concern that the entire tree might fail, they came up with the idea of using shower curtain hanger rings as a fuse.
 
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Great discussion, I agree climb high and take smaller pieces. I missed this discussion before and thought I would bring it up again. Good cutting technique is a life saver.

Lonnie

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with "learning good cutting technique" and disagree with "climb higher"... A good faller knows what he can and can't get away with.. If you really know how to cut, you don't need to climb higher.. When I hear someone call me lazy for not climbing higher, I know he doesn't know how to cut. AND he's so ignorant, he'd rather call me lazy or lucky than admit he simply lacks skills!

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Daniel, I think that you are missing Ed Hobbs point and mine when we say, when in doubt “climb higher.” This is primarily geared to the newer climbers who haven’t gained the confidence or skills that a good faller has in knowing what he can and can’t get away with as you have pointed out.

Obviously, you have the knowledge to take bigger cuts without having to go higher, but I would still encourage a new climber to go higher and take a smaller piece, if they are unsure.

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Good point Chris,
And that is kind of obvious too.. We are all going to cut where we "know" it's safe... or at least think we know.. better for novices to understand what makes a piece susceptible to splitting, and how it can be avoided with proper cutting technique.

Sometimes climbing higher is not an good option, especially on storm damage... then whadya gonnna do? When I was using the 55' bucket I often faced situations where I had to make a choice between getting out of the bucket to climb higher or making the cut from the safety of the bucket..

Here's a big locust that was being taken down becasue the root plate had started lifting during a storm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED5FpmVPP_8

Nothing to tie into above and nowhere to lower the tops without slamming the understory maple. I miss judged the first cut.. I thought the piece would throw far enough to clear the maple,but it didn't... you can HEAR a maple limb snap if you listen. Please don't make a big deal about that.. if you were hired to prune the tree, you might make ten cuts like that..

So in order to clear the maple with the second top, which had a lot of side lean, we needed to get it moving fast and in the right direction with a pull line, which was heavily pretensioned with the skid loader. With that much "front lean", the cut had to be right..

Here's the youtube description:


a couple trees we removed today and yesterday.. threw two 30' locust tops over and through a smaller maple, then dropped to top 60' of a gum into a fairly tight LZ.. the first locust top did break a 2-3" limb in the maple which was my mistake, as I should have used a pull line... 2nd locust top was pulled hard away from its lean, requiring the use of a plunge cut and back release. the small diameter of the wood made it necessary to plunge the backcut before making the notch..
 
Not just the new climber needs to go higher and take a smaller piece, but the sensible knowledgeable climber who only has a ground guy or two and no heavy pulling equipment. You take those size tops with just single pull line ( with 1 or 2 dudes pulling ) there is no room for error however I am DEFINITELY NOT saying it can't be done. One mistake could be costly so why take the chance. I wouldn't recommend doing it near a dwelling or expensive gazebo which if things go south they could be damaged. If trees are compromised then going higher is not an option but that should be obvious and different options need to be sought out. As long as the trees are in good shape and there is enough room to steer the tops using ample hinge wood I would personally climb and take the tops as big as I can. That's just my humble opinion. Again I hate the thought of buckets and other heavy equipment, personally when I am too old and slow to climb ( that might just be awhile hopefully ), I figure my young climbers will get the job done. I love the sound of chainsaws but the other equipment does my head in it reminds me more of a construction site which I am trying to get away from. And as I always say I like the simple life it's just my style don't need all the bling.
 
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Great discussion, I agree climb high and take smaller pieces. I missed this discussion before and thought I would bring it up again. Good cutting technique is a life saver.

Lonnie

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with "learning good cutting technique" and disagree with "climb higher"... A good faller knows what he can and can't get away with.. there are other cuts to use besides the "bore cut & back release"... Certainly BC&BR should be honed as a skill and every advanced climber should be able to do it in the spikes, from either side, with big or little stems, and know how to vary the cut based on species and lean etc.

You have to practice this stuff on the ground till you have complete mastery. I hear guys that love to pat themselves on the back for being so good at tree work, that don't use the BC&BR (at least not much). Worse than that they dump on those of us that use it, like there is something wrong with the cut.. Mouthy ignoramuses... the bore cut and back release creates a whole new level of possibilities when you know you can trust it..

If you really know how to cut, you don't need to climb higher.. When I hear someone call me lazy for not climbing higher, I know he doesn't know how to cut. AND he's so ignorant, he'd rather call me lazy or lucky than admit he simply lacks skills!


LOL... that's kicking the hive again huh?

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Fast question, when you bore cut and it is time to cut the 'back strap' do you cut it from the bore side to the outside surface of the tree or do you cut from the ouside 'bark toward the center of the tree? and any different effects? sorry to derail
 
Well I will answer this one the way I know how. Make the bore in the trunk moving away from the hinge and face cut, leaving a strap at the back. Pull out of bore and release the back strap with a regular back cut, this will set the hinge on the leaner in motion. Gives greater control with trees of heavy lean, or just big straight tops. Remember to watch out for the saw getting grabbed when releasing the back strap. Scrat Reg posted this technique in his last video about felling cuts if ya want to see it in action.
 
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Fast question, when you bore cut and it is time to cut the 'back strap' do you cut it from the bore side to the outside surface of the tree or do you cut from the ouside 'bark toward the center of the tree? and any different effects? sorry to derail

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I generally go from backside forward, and mostly an inch or two below the plunge. You get a little extra time as the fibers take a couple seconds to separate. This extra escape time can be very important for loggers, falling in the woods, though it makes little difference in most situations faced by arbs. So mostly you can go either way.. it rarely matters
 
I read that thread started by the fireman.. this is an important safety issue that is good to keep in mind.. thanks for the link X..

Fireman never was clear if what he called an "undercut" was a notch or a kerf. I AM pretty sure it was a notch. He was just taking too much weight for the notch. And, sounds like he was in an awkward position to be plunge cutting from.. There are other options..

Here's a video of a tree that was cut without any undercut. The pieces were small enough to not kill the climber, but looks like he got lucky to only damage the deck. You can see how the one piece started splitting down the trunk. this was red oak.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXKVmoBzQgQ
 
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