Blake's hitch slipping

Re: Blake\'s hitch slipping

I REALLY want to thank you all for your constructive and VERY helpful comments.

here is the story about the knots and WHY i was climbing or DID climb on that setup.

I was trained by a very respected Lady that teaches rec climbing. This is the training standard, that is uses as i have it tied, for those classes for Rec climbs (a certain company's standard teaching criteria).

SIDE NOTE - I currently climb on a beeline closed split tail setup.

when I attend the local tree events for KID's - this is the setup that they use, a 5/3 blakes that is know as "The Magic Knot" for the kids, with a figure 8 on a bight and all those other 8's in there.

The day I was having an issue, I was on my HI-V (pi) which is about 18 months old, only about 200 climbs on it. i was in the tree for about two hours, ascending, moving about until we reached the tree's top. I was on this "traditional" system as we were doing a "USE nothing but the rope and two biner climb". It was a how to use the rope for everything class.

Since I was taught that way, 5/3 - i was comfortable and knew what to expect on how it feels when you descend.

We all know what that, OH MY, feeling is when something is not right, as I was sliding down the rope. I had enough sense to footlock to spot, attempt to reset it but ended up with the hardward figure 8 to assist in my decent.

There are concerns here aboout the 5/3 as i had it tied, is that safe? is it recommended? is that a knot that should be used in training new climbers? lots of quesitons.

thanks

jz - SMALL and dainty, light on the rope as i have big head from all the compliments you have all give me.
 
Re: Blake\'s hitch slipping

JZ, the Blakes 5/3 is extremely reliable. Even when set very loose it sill grabs on descent. The only adjustment I've ever had to make on it after I was climbing was to loosen it. Blakes 4/2 or 5/3 tends to tighten up following long hang times typical in rec climbing.

So what I challenge you to do is reproduce the behavior (5/3 won't hold on descent). It's kind of like a software bug, if it only happens once it's not a bug, if you can reproduce it, then it's a bug.

Note:
You can always place a slip knot on the running end below the hitch if you're concerned that it will drop you during testing.

My suspicion is that there was some other variable not accounted for.

Some questions come up:
1. Was the hitch tied on the ground before you climbed or had you done a switchover during the climb? In other words did you tie the Blakes that slipped while you were up in the tree or is that the same hitch you started on at the beginning of the climb.

Standard protocol for doing a switchover is that you completely hang on the new TIP and verify that the hitch grabs before you untie from the primary TIP. If you did a switchover did the hitch grab when you tested it?

Call me mister accident investigator,
-mossy
 
Re: Blake\'s hitch slipping

Something else I thought of...

The photo you showed was a correctly tied B5/3, but was it a photo from the day when the hitch wouldn't hold?

Anyhow, hope these points help to narrow down what happened. I've never heard any climber ever say that a B5/3 or B4/2 properly tied, set and tested before use wouldn't grab after that.

To your other question: Should I switch to a 4/2?
4/2 works great but does tend to lock up a little harder during the course of a climb than a 5/3. You can always loosen it a little as needed during the climb.

Funny thing though about everybody saying they climb on a closed split tail. I do too, but when you double crotch say doing a tree-to-tree traverse one side is usually tied with a blakes. Pretty much the only time I'm on a blakes these days. It would be a little tough to manage climbing on the other end of the rope with a second closed split tail.
-moss
 
Re: Blake\'s hitch slipping

Jersey,

Here's a blakes set up I use from time to time when I need an extra temporary high anchor point for a long branchwalk using the tail end of my line.

The rope is New England safety blue

152892-tautlineblakes.jpg


Below is my usual blakes set up which I've been using since the year dot, its set up a bit longer than usual, normally I have it really short so I can reach behind me on a branch walk to grab the hitch without giving myself a hernia, it also has slack tender pulley which is worth a try if you've never used one.

152892-tree010.jpg
 

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Re: Blake\'s hitch slipping

[ QUOTE ]
[...]

Standard protocol for doing a switchover is...
[...]

Call me mister accident investigator,
-mossy

[/ QUOTE ]

[whiny little brother sounding voice="On"]Shaaaarrrriiii... Mossy said the words 'Standard' and 'Protocol'... in the same sentence even![whiny little brother sounding voice="Off"]
 
Re: Blake\'s hitch slipping

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[...]

Standard protocol for doing a switchover is...
[...]

Call me mister accident investigator,
-mossy

[/ QUOTE ]

[whiny little brother sounding voice="On"]Shaaaarrrriiii... Mossy said the words 'Standard' and 'Protocol'... in the same sentence even![whiny little brother sounding voice="Off"]

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason I'm asking...
Whether or not Shari tied the knot in the tree or on the ground, and tested after tying is to get to the bottom of why it didn't hold. Shari asked "is the B5/3 safe?" so it's worth following up to figure out what happened. I have no doubt that a correctly tied and operated B5/3 or B4/2 is completely safe, that's why I think there is a variable missing from the report. Further details from Shari may shed some light.
-moss
 
Re: Blake\'s hitch slipping

Moss, (and I'm actually being serious now) I'm not sure about which way you mean to tie a B5/3. Do you mean two coils or three below the exiting tail?

The reason I ask is, when I tie with 3 coils below, the knot will slip... not like butter but it won't stay put when my full weight is on it... actually I have to qualify that, it's only with PI that I have the issue. With Velocity it's tight.
 
Re: Blake\'s hitch slipping

HI - I was climbing with Joe and Bill, the knot was TDS - and weighted after each switch - Joe and Bill Both looked at it and we re-set it, it was 45, no rain i was wear gloves.

all that stuff

Hope that helps - i will be using something different. that was the first ever time it slipped on me. i am better now that i know it can happen

thanks

shari
 
Re: Blake\'s hitch slipping

[ QUOTE ]
JZG wrote: HI - I was climbing with Joe and Bill, the knot was TDS - and weighted after each switch - Joe and Bill Both looked at it and we re-set it, it was 45, no rain i was wear gloves.

[/ QUOTE ]

I scanned back over this thread and I don't see you describing the rope used -- type, age, condition?
 
Re: Blake\'s hitch slipping

[ QUOTE ]
HI - I was climbing with Joe and Bill, the knot was TDS - and weighted after each switch - Joe and Bill Both looked at it and we re-set it, it was 45, no rain i was wear gloves.

all that stuff

Hope that helps - i will be using something different. that was the first ever time it slipped on me. i am better now that i know it can happen

thanks

shari

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Shari. So after you all looked at it and reset it did it hold after that?
-mossy
 
Re: Blake\'s hitch slipping

[ QUOTE ]
Moss, (and I'm actually being serious now) I'm not sure about which way you mean to tie a B5/3. Do you mean two coils or three below the exiting tail?

The reason I ask is, when I tie with 3 coils below, the knot will slip... not like butter but it won't stay put when my full weight is on it... actually I have to qualify that, it's only with PI that I have the issue. With Velocity it's tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I describe a Blake's configuration the first number is the total number of wraps, the second number is how many wraps the tuck is under.

Yep, I've found the same thing, a Blakes on PI needs to be set tighter than say a 1/2" 16-strand for the hitch to grab well. With a B5/3 it's worse I think because the pressure (the tuck) is more distributed, a B4/2 grabs better but still needs to set tighter than with a 1/2" rope. I've never thought PI was very good for tying in traditional w/Blakes. With a Blake's on a split tail of slightly less diameter it seems to behave normally. I've used Blaze as a split tail/Blakes on PI and it was just fine. I think PI performs best with a closed split tail/advanced hitch system.
-moss
 
Re: Blake\'s hitch slipping

DaveJ here is the rope information

[ QUOTE ]

The day I was having an issue, I was on my HI-V (pi) which is about 18 months old, only about 200 climbs on it. i was in the tree for about two hours, ascending, moving about until we reached the tree's top. I was on this "traditional" system as we were doing a "USE nothing but the rope and two biner climb". It was a how to use the rope for everything class.

[/ QUOTE ]

here is the rope information

jz - climbing in the rain on a 68 degree day
 
Re: Blake\'s hitch slipping

It sounds like the problem has been pretty much examined beat to a pulp. And you know your solution.

I'm just curious if you were using a natural crotch for a T.I.P. or did you have a F.C. with a pulley?
 
Re: Blake\'s hitch slipping

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
JZG wrote: HI - I was climbing with Joe and Bill, the knot was TDS - and weighted after each switch - Joe and Bill Both looked at it and we re-set it, it was 45, no rain i was wear gloves.

[/ QUOTE ]

I scanned back over this thread and I don't see you describing the rope used -- type, age, condition?

[/ QUOTE ]

From that first posted pic, looked new, clean, and slippery. Great point.
 
Re: Blake\'s hitch slipping

[ QUOTE ]
Shari wrote:
The day I was having an issue, I was on my HI-V (pi) which is about 18 months old, only about 200 climbs on it.

[/ QUOTE ]


Any chance something "interesting" found its way onto the rope? Hand lotion? Sunscreen? Insect repellent? I'd guess it wasn't bar oil. Has anyone tried that?
 
Re: Blake\'s hitch slipping

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds like the problem has been pretty much examined beat to a pulp. And you know your solution.

I'm just curious if you were using a natural crotch for a T.I.P. or did you have a F.C. with a pulley?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, case closed. Good question about the TIP though, a pulley is going to make an already touchy hitch even more so.
-moss
 
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