TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
Something is wrong with the reasoning that knives are to dangerous to use to cut rope.
Base Tie Rescue System/Kit
- Thread starter bonner1040
- Start date
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Hand pruners are a good choice.
Open blades+tensioned ropes+emergency= high potential for the knife cutting the wrong rope
Either way...I'll never condone a system where cutting a rope during an emergency is part of the rescue.
There are way too many other options that are more fool-proof and safer.
Open blades+tensioned ropes+emergency= high potential for the knife cutting the wrong rope
Either way...I'll never condone a system where cutting a rope during an emergency is part of the rescue.
There are way too many other options that are more fool-proof and safer.
- Location
- Southern Appalachian Mtns, NC
I have to agree about not cutting the rope during rescue.
But I kinda lean towards not requiring a system that passes a whistle test either.
Sometimes if you have only one groundie a whistle test system may be a handful.
I'll stick with a rescue 8 attached to a choked strap at the base of the tree - hard locked - as my base tie in.
Any yes the 8 isn't the best rescue descender but it's quick to setup, easy to inspect, and quick and simple to institute a rescue. A prussik above the 8 would in fact pass the whistle test but I want both of the groundie's hands on my rope and eyes on the rescue not operating progress capture devices.
But I kinda lean towards not requiring a system that passes a whistle test either.
Sometimes if you have only one groundie a whistle test system may be a handful.
I'll stick with a rescue 8 attached to a choked strap at the base of the tree - hard locked - as my base tie in.
Any yes the 8 isn't the best rescue descender but it's quick to setup, easy to inspect, and quick and simple to institute a rescue. A prussik above the 8 would in fact pass the whistle test but I want both of the groundie's hands on my rope and eyes on the rescue not operating progress capture devices.
tuttle
New member
- Location
- Somewhere in the 21st century
I always have my Pruners for roses on me, in my small gardening kit bag, so that would be an easy method.
A petzl id or grillon could be the best way to go instead of the fig 8.
A petzl id or grillon could be the best way to go instead of the fig 8.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
I don't think a Grillon is for belaying...be sure to check that out.
Double wrap on a rescue 8 has lots of friction.
Double wrap on a rescue 8 has lots of friction.
tuttle
New member
- Location
- Somewhere in the 21st century
Sorry meant gri-gri, although a grillon is similar.
I know these crazy fools don't realise that a whack on the head when getting pulled back to the rock could kill the faller, but still its a video....http://youtu.be/i6EzpBaKYTs
I know these crazy fools don't realise that a whack on the head when getting pulled back to the rock could kill the faller, but still its a video....http://youtu.be/i6EzpBaKYTs
[ QUOTE ]
...Either way...I'll never condone a system where cutting a rope during an emergency is part of the rescue...
[/ QUOTE ]
Tom, what are you going to do if you are faced with having to rescue an injured climber who has become entangled in his or her climbing and rigging lines?
There is no other industry or profession that has as much exposure to the dangers of dealing with sharp tools in close proximity of rope life support systems. We do it every day, week after week, year after year, and have learned how to cut close to lifelines with tools far more dangerous and harder to control than a hand pruner. It is also common to be doing this in high stress situations, through exhaustion and foul weather.
We, as professionals, are bound by standards and common sense to not climb without having a trained-in-rescue, ground person within visual or voice communication. ( Z133-2012 8.1.2 )
Our ground workers have more experience with complex and high stress lowering procedures than any other profession. It is not uncommon that a mistake during these procedures would cause an injury or death. The vast majority of these tasks will not pass the whistle test.
My reason for posting is NOT to try and persuade anyone into using this system. It is my personal choice for a base tied, assisted rescue system and I have many more reasons for choosing it that, for me, far outweigh the risks.
David
...Either way...I'll never condone a system where cutting a rope during an emergency is part of the rescue...
[/ QUOTE ]
Tom, what are you going to do if you are faced with having to rescue an injured climber who has become entangled in his or her climbing and rigging lines?
There is no other industry or profession that has as much exposure to the dangers of dealing with sharp tools in close proximity of rope life support systems. We do it every day, week after week, year after year, and have learned how to cut close to lifelines with tools far more dangerous and harder to control than a hand pruner. It is also common to be doing this in high stress situations, through exhaustion and foul weather.
We, as professionals, are bound by standards and common sense to not climb without having a trained-in-rescue, ground person within visual or voice communication. ( Z133-2012 8.1.2 )
Our ground workers have more experience with complex and high stress lowering procedures than any other profession. It is not uncommon that a mistake during these procedures would cause an injury or death. The vast majority of these tasks will not pass the whistle test.
My reason for posting is NOT to try and persuade anyone into using this system. It is my personal choice for a base tied, assisted rescue system and I have many more reasons for choosing it that, for me, far outweigh the risks.
David
- Location
- Southern Appalachian Mtns, NC
I can't see how the initially described system would be superior to a system integrated into the main climbing line and base anchor.
Why using a separate rope just to lower in the event of rescue when you already have a perfect opportunity to put a system right in with your main climbing line with no knots and no cutting is hard for me to get my head around.
Why using a separate rope just to lower in the event of rescue when you already have a perfect opportunity to put a system right in with your main climbing line with no knots and no cutting is hard for me to get my head around.
bonner1040
Branched out member
- Location
- Boston
[ QUOTE ]
I can't see how the initially described system would be superior to a system integrated into the main climbing line and base anchor.
Why using a separate rope just to lower in the event of rescue when you already have a perfect opportunity to put a system right in with your main climbing line with no knots and no cutting is hard for me to get my head around.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because it doesnt require any setup, beyond two knots. As a result, it gets used every time. Whether I climb 1 tree or 5 in a day I set it up every time. Any other system say what you want but there are times people skip it and just tie a running bowline on the base, thinking this tree is easy, or whatever.
When I need it, it will be there, you can count on that. I dont have to carry anything, install anything, etc.
If you can't trust your ground worker to slowly lower a static 200lb load then how can they lower limbs far beyond that weight over houses, cars, property and other people?
If you need a whistle test then attach a small prusik above or below the f8.
I can't see how the initially described system would be superior to a system integrated into the main climbing line and base anchor.
Why using a separate rope just to lower in the event of rescue when you already have a perfect opportunity to put a system right in with your main climbing line with no knots and no cutting is hard for me to get my head around.
[/ QUOTE ]
Because it doesnt require any setup, beyond two knots. As a result, it gets used every time. Whether I climb 1 tree or 5 in a day I set it up every time. Any other system say what you want but there are times people skip it and just tie a running bowline on the base, thinking this tree is easy, or whatever.
When I need it, it will be there, you can count on that. I dont have to carry anything, install anything, etc.
If you can't trust your ground worker to slowly lower a static 200lb load then how can they lower limbs far beyond that weight over houses, cars, property and other people?
If you need a whistle test then attach a small prusik above or below the f8.
Crazy_Jimmy
Participating member
- Location
- Texas
I watched the video again and I dont believe its any quicker doing this set up as it would be my basal set up with a rig.
But I see 2 main problems with this rescue set up
First sending and alpine butterfly knot with a caribiner up thru unions could easily get stuck.
Secondly it has the potential for side loading the caribiner if it had to pass thru a union.For those reason alone I would never use a system like this.Unless Im seeing something wrong here and if so please enlighten me.
But I see 2 main problems with this rescue set up
First sending and alpine butterfly knot with a caribiner up thru unions could easily get stuck.
Secondly it has the potential for side loading the caribiner if it had to pass thru a union.For those reason alone I would never use a system like this.Unless Im seeing something wrong here and if so please enlighten me.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Dave,
If the victim is entangled that is different of course. In that case the victim would have a belay system attached to them and then their tangled system would be cut away.
Of course we do precision cuts...all of the time. Lines do get cut...so do people. Last week I talked with a climber who was on SRT, making a handsaw cut. The climber had put their lanyard around the trunk or branch. They reached around the back of the tree to cut a limb...but didn't check where their climbing rope was. Yup...cut the rope, slipped a tiny bit and their lanyard held.
Doing a rescue lower is much different than rigging. The mental pressure doesn't even compare.
Let me illustrate how calmness goes into the wind in a rescue scenario. I think I've shared this story before...bear with me.
Charley Wagner and I planned an AR workshop. We setup 7-8 stations that groups would rotate through. At one tree the object was to set a rope in a low union using a monkey fist. The victim was tied into a sound TIP and was on the lowest limb. It seemed pretty simple, the rescue TIP was low and a big target. Now...here's the catch! One person was picked to be the first rope tosser. As they were coiling their rope the rest of the group...5-6 guys were instructed to play act and get wound up. One was the victim...hollaring...groaning...another was a freaked out client. The actors were goaded into antagonizing the rescuer in order to get their anxiety level up. Put the pressure on them. We had a really good buy-in from all of the teams.
when Charley and I came up with this scenario we wondered if we would get buy-in and if the rescuers would freak out at all since it was play acting. they were also instructed not to talk about the scenario with the rest of the participants.
At lunch I talked with people who had gone through the station. ALL of them could see that their ability to perform otherwise simple tasks was severely diminished. Some rescuers could hardly coil the rope and get a toss up. It was enlightening to hear how humbling it was to perform so poorly. Everyone really liked the scenario and went away with an appreciation for rescuers.
My trunk wrap ground anchor doesn't require any more gear or setup or extra rope.
While I was fine-tuning my anchor I ran it past some non-climbers to see if they could figure it out. Was it simple enough for a non-climber to lower me [I was never more than 4' off the ground]. To get them into the action after I asked them to pretend like I had been injured and they needed to lower me I'd get wound up! They'd have to untie my stopper then figure out how to let the Klemheist slip to lower me. When I started hollaring and play acting I could see that their physical abilities were declining somewhat. Everyone was able to figure it out pretty easily and I never was concerned that they were going to drop me. Afterwards, while I was standing on the ground I'd setup some other belays, Munter, F8, devices like rack, I'd etc. All were installed with stopper/lockoffs. This hasn't been scientific by any means, but, my takeaway is that I wouldn't use anything but a trunk wrap or I'd/rig/Eddy...something with a let go/lock off feature for my ground anchor.
If the victim is entangled that is different of course. In that case the victim would have a belay system attached to them and then their tangled system would be cut away.
Of course we do precision cuts...all of the time. Lines do get cut...so do people. Last week I talked with a climber who was on SRT, making a handsaw cut. The climber had put their lanyard around the trunk or branch. They reached around the back of the tree to cut a limb...but didn't check where their climbing rope was. Yup...cut the rope, slipped a tiny bit and their lanyard held.
Doing a rescue lower is much different than rigging. The mental pressure doesn't even compare.
Let me illustrate how calmness goes into the wind in a rescue scenario. I think I've shared this story before...bear with me.
Charley Wagner and I planned an AR workshop. We setup 7-8 stations that groups would rotate through. At one tree the object was to set a rope in a low union using a monkey fist. The victim was tied into a sound TIP and was on the lowest limb. It seemed pretty simple, the rescue TIP was low and a big target. Now...here's the catch! One person was picked to be the first rope tosser. As they were coiling their rope the rest of the group...5-6 guys were instructed to play act and get wound up. One was the victim...hollaring...groaning...another was a freaked out client. The actors were goaded into antagonizing the rescuer in order to get their anxiety level up. Put the pressure on them. We had a really good buy-in from all of the teams.
when Charley and I came up with this scenario we wondered if we would get buy-in and if the rescuers would freak out at all since it was play acting. they were also instructed not to talk about the scenario with the rest of the participants.
At lunch I talked with people who had gone through the station. ALL of them could see that their ability to perform otherwise simple tasks was severely diminished. Some rescuers could hardly coil the rope and get a toss up. It was enlightening to hear how humbling it was to perform so poorly. Everyone really liked the scenario and went away with an appreciation for rescuers.
My trunk wrap ground anchor doesn't require any more gear or setup or extra rope.
While I was fine-tuning my anchor I ran it past some non-climbers to see if they could figure it out. Was it simple enough for a non-climber to lower me [I was never more than 4' off the ground]. To get them into the action after I asked them to pretend like I had been injured and they needed to lower me I'd get wound up! They'd have to untie my stopper then figure out how to let the Klemheist slip to lower me. When I started hollaring and play acting I could see that their physical abilities were declining somewhat. Everyone was able to figure it out pretty easily and I never was concerned that they were going to drop me. Afterwards, while I was standing on the ground I'd setup some other belays, Munter, F8, devices like rack, I'd etc. All were installed with stopper/lockoffs. This hasn't been scientific by any means, but, my takeaway is that I wouldn't use anything but a trunk wrap or I'd/rig/Eddy...something with a let go/lock off feature for my ground anchor.
[ QUOTE ]
I can't see how the initially described system would be superior to a system integrated into the main climbing line and base anchor...
[/ QUOTE ]
Our climbing systems are first and most importantly climbing systems. Adding extra components for a "maybe" rescue, beyond what is needed for safe and foolproof anchorage, is introducing potential points of failure and unnecessary complexity.
To me, this makes no sense and is backwards thinking. I do everything in my power to ensure a safe climb and that starts with eliminating potential points of failure, not adding them. It makes more sense to add in complexity only, and if, it is needed.
David
I can't see how the initially described system would be superior to a system integrated into the main climbing line and base anchor...
[/ QUOTE ]
Our climbing systems are first and most importantly climbing systems. Adding extra components for a "maybe" rescue, beyond what is needed for safe and foolproof anchorage, is introducing potential points of failure and unnecessary complexity.
To me, this makes no sense and is backwards thinking. I do everything in my power to ensure a safe climb and that starts with eliminating potential points of failure, not adding them. It makes more sense to add in complexity only, and if, it is needed.
David
countryboypa31
New member
- Location
- PA
Def not any faster. The rig is the best basil anchor rescue able system. No doubt in my mind. It is so easy to set up i use it every time. The smaller trees it allows me to only use the amount of rope the tree requires. For large trees it enables my ground crew to add rope if i'm able to do multiple trees or similar situations. If your looking to simplify it down to the absolute basics i can show you what i train my other climbers to do with no added gear. It does involve cutting much like yours but away from your lower able system.
bonner1040
Branched out member
- Location
- Boston
What I love most about all of this, is, there are so MANY options. We can all choose what works best for us!
- Location
- Southern Appalachian Mtns, NC
What I really like about this is we all approach climbing with different perspectives. It's those different perspectives that help me learn.
I've learned so much from so many - I actually appreciate others questioning aspects of my climbing system and others - it helps me learn. It's these discussions that gets my gears turning.
I've learned so much from so many - I actually appreciate others questioning aspects of my climbing system and others - it helps me learn. It's these discussions that gets my gears turning.
Richard Mumford-yoyoman
Been here a while
- Location
- Atlanta GA
[ QUOTE ]
What I really like about this is we all approach climbing with different perspectives. It's those different perspectives that help me learn.
I've learned so much from so many - I actually appreciate others questioning aspects of my climbing system and others - it helps me learn. It's these discussions that gets my gears turning.
[/ QUOTE ]
1000% agree
And you all do it with such professionalism, I'm truly impressed!!!
AND appreciative.
What I really like about this is we all approach climbing with different perspectives. It's those different perspectives that help me learn.
I've learned so much from so many - I actually appreciate others questioning aspects of my climbing system and others - it helps me learn. It's these discussions that gets my gears turning.
[/ QUOTE ]
1000% agree
And you all do it with such professionalism, I'm truly impressed!!!
AND appreciative.
SoftBankHawks
Branched out member
- Location
- Japan
I'm a little late to this discussion. The RIG certainly is quick to install and great for rope manipulation like Countryboy said...extending climbing line length but really fails when a lone groundsman has to run a rescue as a climber coming down away from the trunk, if unconscious, will be likely to receive neck damage. Tom's Trunk Wraps can have a prussik added and clipped to a groundsman in-case of a slip and give him freedom of movement.
I shivered a little when I saw the cutting tool. A no-no for me until all other avenues have been explored. If a climber is conscious and hurt they will try their hardest to get down and if they cannot a rescue climber should be up a pre-installed line lickety-split. Too many variables of concern to begin lowering a casualty without a close-up check first.
I shivered a little when I saw the cutting tool. A no-no for me until all other avenues have been explored. If a climber is conscious and hurt they will try their hardest to get down and if they cannot a rescue climber should be up a pre-installed line lickety-split. Too many variables of concern to begin lowering a casualty without a close-up check first.
bonner1040
Branched out member
- Location
- Boston
The base tie kit is in-stock and available for sale!
https://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=3538#detail
https://www.treestuff.com/store/catalog.asp?item=3538#detail
We have used the same system for the past 15+ years. 300' of static line in a bag attached to the tree with a tenex eye sling and a Petzl GriGri, Rig or l'd. Simple and works great. As for cutting a rope in a rescue...most of the time there is another way, usually involving rigging for raising a load, but if time matters and one must cut a line use a hook blade with a pulling motion. Most all the basal anchors methods I see touted are unnecessarily complicated.
