Ascent line on a spar

Tom Dunlap

Tom Dunlap

Here from the beginning
Administrator
Location
Retired in Minneapolis
Many crews are choosing to require the installation of a separate ascent line in a tree to be used in case there's a need for a rescue. This is generally easy to accomplish during pruning. But...what happens during a removal when the canopy has been cut away and the climber starts to chunk down the spar?

I know that there are some easy ways to choke the ascent line to the spar on the trunk below the climber. This does add another bit of line and complication.

Everyone can imagine the possibility of still needing to perform a rescue of a climber from a spar.

Is this possibly another case of having a solution to a problem that doesn't exist?
 
why cant the climber have the chockered ascent line as his second tie in point via a prussek on the single line....then the rescuer could ascend the same line?
 
[ QUOTE ]

Is this possibly another case of having a solution to a problem that doesn't exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok socrates, i'll have a go

I would ask myself this -

Is the ascent line gonna get me to the victim quicker than flipline and spikes? - No

For this type of rescue do I want to be wearing spikes? - Yes

So, do I really need a rescue ascent line installed - No
 
It all depends on the situation and the skills of the rescue climber on site:

If its well within the capabilities of the rescuer to climb the tree un-aided then I don't bother. Thats because my lifeline is choked and ready for rescue once the climber gets to me (if its not damaged). Often, however, the pole can have bends which makes for a tricky ascent, or big girth and bulges. In this case, I might keep the ascent line and choke it below me (running bowlin, spread it wide and flick it down). But you have to be careful it doesn't get whacked with a chog! I normally leave pegs on the rear side of the lean of such a tree, about a foot long, every 6 feet or so. Depends where they occur. Even if its only a couple on a 60ft pole, it means a throwline can be used to pull up and choke a rescue line around the stem (the pegs need not be load bearing). That avoids the risk of damaging a line from roped sections and any tangles. Also, the pegs are handy for 'cocking a leg' when placing rigging and cuts on the underside of the lean.
cool.gif


I see what you mean Steve, but the problem there is you are committed to a line without knowing if the injured climber has damaged it. Its not considered best practice in the UK. Similar to a choked life line. Its ok to use it for descending the climber though, after you get to him and can see it isn't damaged. About 15 years ago a certain person was training rescue on the climbers lifeline, and was stopped because it cannot be known if its damaged.

I don't see this as a problem that doesn't exist Tom - Pole work is very risky business and pole rescues hard work. If the rescuer has speedy safe access, that has to be a good thing. I wouldn't like to see it mandatory though, just where necessary/prudent.

I was involved in a pole rescue at 18 yrs old. We were lucky there was a peg for the rescue rope and a big ladder to the climber (typical last cut syndrome at 25ft).
 
[ QUOTE ]

If its well within the capabilities of the rescuer to climb the tree un-aided then I don't bother.


[/ QUOTE ]

I to have been involved in a pole rescue situation, I was on the ground watching.

The rescue climber was wearing spikes, it allowed him far superior work positioning than if he was spikeless, the tree was a european beech(very smooth bark)

If he was spikeless he would have been struggling to get a good grip on the stem at the critical points in the rescue.

But if you feel its well within your capabilities to climb the pole un-aided - good luck, especially in the rain!

Oh yeah - if your rescue ascent line is below your feet, how's the spikeless rescuer gonna get slighty above you to set the rescue gear up?
 
Axeknot;

When L2 said "unaided" I think he meant 'without the use of an access line' not 'without the use of spikes', i.e. the climber would ascend the tree with only spikes and a lanyard--no access line.
 
I was teaching AR last week and did 4 different rescue situations, one of which was a pole rescue..... Most people have never even seen one much less done one (myself included). So i put alot of thought into it and came up with a couple of different techniques. it was quite complicated, and aqward(like me in 6th grade). it should only be preformed using a rescue dummy(well all AR training should be using a dummy) cause you dont want to spike your buddy

I think that we should be teaching pole rescues as much as canopy ones
 
[ QUOTE ]

I think that we should be teaching pole rescues as much as canopy ones

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point and fantastic idea. I think this type of rescue may even be more difficult and possibly even more likely. There are alot of things that can seriously go wrong while working a spar...

I think the need for a second access line is a little excessive. Most likely, access with spikes/rope saddle is possible and more likely the most efficient method. I see no issue with tying into the climbers climbing line if it were attached securely to the tree. Which doesn't mean that it isn't necessary to bring along your own lifeline for the rappel.

Do we really need to make the tree law to get this anal?
 
What are the thoughts on the safest, most efficient methods of securing oneself to the spar? I have my own thoughts, that are policy with myself and my employees, on what is safest pre/post accident, but lets see what is evolving out there.

For example, it is considered good/safe practise by those who created the Arborist Safe Work Practices (Ontario) to work a pole/spar with nothing more than spurs and lanyard. Not exactly a standard I can agree with.
 
Thanks Mahk. You understand me well.

Pole rescue has been a mandatory part of basic tree climber training and assessment in the UK for a very long time now. Having taught it countless times and actually had to do it, it is incredibly hard work. And very dangerous for both with spikes kicking around and above!!!

I originally bought a rope guide for pole rescues, but it slip down the pole when choked and loaded with two climbers. Believe me!!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Mahk. You understand me well.

Pole rescue has been a mandatory part of basic tree climber training and assessment in the UK for a very long time now. Having taught it countless times and actually had to do it, it is incredibly hard work. And very dangerous for both with spikes kicking around and above!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Lazarus2, everyone on this forum knows by now that you have been climbing since the dawn of time.

You are to aboriculture what God is to Christianity.

You have more experience than all of us put together.

You are always right on every subject.

I bow to your superior knowledge on everything in the known universe that is related to arboriculture.

More info - less ego please!

thanks Laz.
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

You are to aboriculture what God is to Christianity.


[/ QUOTE ]

I see laz2 as the 'All Knowing Trash Heap' from Fragil Rock

sorry, could'nt resit it!
laugh.gif
 
rotflmao.gif


Oh come on..........I'm not that bad!!!

Its not a question of 'I know more than you - look', I'm just putting across the benefit of my experience and knowledge on certain issues. The fact is the UK has had to chew the fat 10 to 15 years ago on many of the subjects TreeBuzz shows up. Alot of time and effort can be saved by using the benefit of our experience on such issues.


Fraggle Rock - Ha! I loved that!

My comment to Mahk was because everytime I return to a post to explain myself, Mahk has already done it perfectly well. Its easy to be misunderstood.I bow to Mahk's experience and knowledge on many topics. I wasn't being patronising. I hope Mahk realises that! I seem to have put your tail up for some reason Axeknot.
cool.gif
 
Rescue on a spar should be as simple as possible. Spurs and lanyard for the person doing the rescue. If it were me being the victim I would have my lanyard on plus my climbing line choked around the stem with my prussik tied and ready in case I need a quick exit. The rescurer could use my line to ascend if necessary but only if the climbing line was not damaged. That person should also have their climbing line with them to descend on.

Not a perfect system but no scenario is.
 
[ QUOTE ]
The fact is the UK has had to chew the fat 10 to 15 years ago on many of the subjects TreeBuzz shows up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok laz2, I lost the plot earlier on in the post.

I worked with a Scottish climber in Washington DC about 5 years ago, he talked a lot about the uk arb scene - is it true that you guys only got organised with your chainsaw certification and training scheme after about 10 guys died using chainsaws clearing up storm damage after your big hurricane in 88?

just curious as to the nature of the uk's almost machine like stance on arb safety - i've seen the booklet(guide to good climbing practice) your Arb Association published after your new euro work at height regs appeared -
Are there any companies in the uk actually using 2 climbing lines in the tree at ALL TIMES like it suggests?
which would mean getting into the tree with 3 ropes.
Are you?
Why didn't they just ban climbing from a rope and harness?
 
Am I missing something here? Or are you picking a "fight"?
Don't become what you hate like your Schopenhauer quote suggests.

I think spurs and a flip line with an additional rope carried up would be the way I'd go...never been in that situation before. Hope never to be.
 
What do you think of this?

Scenario: Climber on a spar secured only with a lanyard in need of rescue.

Rescue method: Ascend the tree with hooks, secure a line above the cimber with a running bowline, secure vicitim to rescue line with a figure 8, make sure the groundman is on belay and release their lanyard, the groundman could then lower them and you as the climber could follow them down for support or to manuver around any obsticles.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Am I missing something here? Or are you picking a "fight"?


[/ QUOTE ]

Relax Roger M, I didn't say laz2 was the antichrist!
but I wouldn't be the slightest little bit surprised if it turned out he was.
laugh.gif


Yeah....... flipline, spikes and additional rope + anchor system(Block in a dead eye sling tied with cowhitch to lower you and your victim down on.
 
When I did my AR cert not long ago we had to do a pole top rescue with spurs on a real person who was no dummy.
grin.gif


We had to transfer them onto our system then get them down.

You have to attach a pulley, or something (I used 2 biners opposing gates) at the top of the spar, get yourself connected DRT, your prussiked to the DRT, then connect the victim to your system. No matter how great a system you make at the top of the spar and how short your prussik is ... it is a difficult thing to have a taut system and be at the right ht to transfer the victim over. You have to let the victim down a bit on their sytem to take up the slack.

The technique of connecting the victim to your set up was easy. On the terminal end of your life line (where you connect the end to your saddle) we had a short prussik connected to the victim. You then transfer the victim to your system by gently lowering them on their system or disconnecting their system. In a real life situation you'd cut them off but those steel core flip lines would be a bugger.

It was a bugger I can tell ya. If in a genuine case the climber cut the top off then something happened you'd be lucky to have 1' of spar above his attachment point.

I think on the topic of an additional rescue line being in the tree ... it's where neccessary depending on the job.

There will always be much debate, and certainly if you are a 100'+ up and chainsaw your arm off you will most likely die from loss of blood by the time some-one gets to you. I cant see a 100% bullet proof safe way, it is a dangerous job and prevention is paramount.

I post this as information not a "tirage".
grin.gif


And my foam is on the ground ready for log bombing and not in my mouth.
wink.gif
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom