Ascender advice
- Thread starter Savarien
- Start date
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
For the definitive answer on ascenders, look here:
http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml
The Basic isn't a very good choice for a lanyard adjuster. It's an open shelled unit. This means that the rope isn't captured like when a Microcender is used. If you do choose to use an ascender for an adjuster look at any of the units with a grooved cam instead of teeth. The teeth tend to nibble ropes as you've found.
Another idea that's gaining popularity is to tie a friction hitch to the side d-ring and use it as a lanyard adjuster. This has been talked about in the not too distant past. If you scroll down the archives I'm sure you'll find the thread.
Tom
http://storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml
The Basic isn't a very good choice for a lanyard adjuster. It's an open shelled unit. This means that the rope isn't captured like when a Microcender is used. If you do choose to use an ascender for an adjuster look at any of the units with a grooved cam instead of teeth. The teeth tend to nibble ropes as you've found.
Another idea that's gaining popularity is to tie a friction hitch to the side d-ring and use it as a lanyard adjuster. This has been talked about in the not too distant past. If you scroll down the archives I'm sure you'll find the thread.
Tom
NickfromWI
Participating member
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
Hmmmmm, interesting
I was looking on the Wild Country website today and found something that goes against what most of us think....I think...
http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/pages/hardware/rope_rope2.html
It states, and I quote, "blahblah, blah. Compact investment casting keeps weight to a minimum and has allowed us to replace the ridges of the alloy cam with conical pins which REDUCE rope wear."
They make a similar version of this tiny ascender which is cammed, which I love.
So the pins reduce rope wear, huh? I think we need to look in to this.
love
nick
I was looking on the Wild Country website today and found something that goes against what most of us think....I think...
http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/pages/hardware/rope_rope2.html
It states, and I quote, "blahblah, blah. Compact investment casting keeps weight to a minimum and has allowed us to replace the ridges of the alloy cam with conical pins which REDUCE rope wear."
They make a similar version of this tiny ascender which is cammed, which I love.
So the pins reduce rope wear, huh? I think we need to look in to this.
love
nick
Re: Hmmmmm, interesting
i spoke to the guy in my local rock climbing shop about this a while ago regarding the tibloc. i think this more applies to kermantle rope where the strength of the rope is on the inside......theory being the spikes just dig in and catch on the outer core rather than a camming method clinching and effectivly crushing the strong inner core
i spoke to the guy in my local rock climbing shop about this a while ago regarding the tibloc. i think this more applies to kermantle rope where the strength of the rope is on the inside......theory being the spikes just dig in and catch on the outer core rather than a camming method clinching and effectivly crushing the strong inner core
- Location
- Burnaby, BC
Re: Hmmmmm, interesting
Hey Mr. Tom D. does that mean that my foot pantin (with teeth) is not a good idea? I cant seem to get a good lock with my boots and the foot pantin made a big difference for me to ascend with.
Hey Mr. Tom D. does that mean that my foot pantin (with teeth) is not a good idea? I cant seem to get a good lock with my boots and the foot pantin made a big difference for me to ascend with.
- Location
- western Oregon
Re: Hmmmmm, interesting
Not to steal Tom's opportunity, Jimmy, but I think he would tell you that since the Pantin is not a life support ascender, rather a climbing assist only, the open body characteristic is not of concern as would be the case with an ascender that performs life support duties.
Not all climbers agree with Tom on this concern, but in any event, that's the gist of it.
Not to steal Tom's opportunity, Jimmy, but I think he would tell you that since the Pantin is not a life support ascender, rather a climbing assist only, the open body characteristic is not of concern as would be the case with an ascender that performs life support duties.
Not all climbers agree with Tom on this concern, but in any event, that's the gist of it.
Mangoes
Participating member
- Location
- Greater Toronto Area
Re: Hmmmmm, interesting
I used the Ropeman I for almost 2 years as a lanyard adjuster, worked awesome! However I took the time to educate myself about the unit so I was familiar with it's limits. The axle that the cam rotates on is only rated to 15 K which is less than required in our industry. As a secondary I was in the mindset anyway of 'backing up' my lanyard, so I felt that if the device were to fail the actual 10' of lanyard was still available for protection. I switched this year to the Positioner after the actual cam on the Ropeman wore to the point of no longer performing its task. I switched to the positioner because last year at the OTCC I took a little heat over the Ropeman, and I didn't need that bother again.
I used the Ropeman I for almost 2 years as a lanyard adjuster, worked awesome! However I took the time to educate myself about the unit so I was familiar with it's limits. The axle that the cam rotates on is only rated to 15 K which is less than required in our industry. As a secondary I was in the mindset anyway of 'backing up' my lanyard, so I felt that if the device were to fail the actual 10' of lanyard was still available for protection. I switched this year to the Positioner after the actual cam on the Ropeman wore to the point of no longer performing its task. I switched to the positioner because last year at the OTCC I took a little heat over the Ropeman, and I didn't need that bother again.
- Location
- Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Re: Hmmmmm, interesting
went to a caving conference here in tas a few days ago...A few people were climbing with a pantin. It was pointed out that you can put in a mini-carabiner in to the pantin to lock the cam onto the rope, similar to putting a biner through the top hole of a petzl basic/ascenscion.
Maybe not too useful on short pitches into trees, but worth noting....
went to a caving conference here in tas a few days ago...A few people were climbing with a pantin. It was pointed out that you can put in a mini-carabiner in to the pantin to lock the cam onto the rope, similar to putting a biner through the top hole of a petzl basic/ascenscion.
Maybe not too useful on short pitches into trees, but worth noting....
- Location
- western Oregon
Re: Hmmmmm, interesting
Hi, Yoav. Yes, I think that has been mentioned once or twice on the boards here, and I have done it myself, especially when first getting used to the device. Some climbers really get with the correct technique and don't have trouble with the Pantin dropping the rope, but for me some type of retainer for the cam on the Pantin is nice, especially on the longer ascents.
I am pretty sure it was on Asite that someone posted a picture of a leather strap/snap retainer they had come up with for the Pantin. It looked real good. A search over there might prove useful if anyone is interested.
Hi, Yoav. Yes, I think that has been mentioned once or twice on the boards here, and I have done it myself, especially when first getting used to the device. Some climbers really get with the correct technique and don't have trouble with the Pantin dropping the rope, but for me some type of retainer for the cam on the Pantin is nice, especially on the longer ascents.
I am pretty sure it was on Asite that someone posted a picture of a leather strap/snap retainer they had come up with for the Pantin. It looked real good. A search over there might prove useful if anyone is interested.
- Location
- western Oregon
Re: Hmmmmm, interesting
[ QUOTE ]
i could be mistaking... but I think the ascender im useing (Petzl - Basic Ascender) does have teeth, but also has a friction clamping action. Correct me if I am wrong or somewhat mislead, please. /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
You are correct, the Petzl Basic does function by camming action, but the rope grabbing action is increased by the presence of teeth on that cam. Some variation of cam is at work in most (if not all) mechanical ascenders and rope grabs, but some have teeth and some use grooves on the cam and/or bumps in the rope channel to increase friction.
[ QUOTE ]
i could be mistaking... but I think the ascender im useing (Petzl - Basic Ascender) does have teeth, but also has a friction clamping action. Correct me if I am wrong or somewhat mislead, please. /forum/images/graemlins/confused.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
You are correct, the Petzl Basic does function by camming action, but the rope grabbing action is increased by the presence of teeth on that cam. Some variation of cam is at work in most (if not all) mechanical ascenders and rope grabs, but some have teeth and some use grooves on the cam and/or bumps in the rope channel to increase friction.
- Location
- Reading, PA
Re: Hmmmmm, interesting
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Mr. Tom D. does that mean that my foot pantin (with teeth) is not a good idea? I cant seem to get a good lock with my boots and the foot pantin made a big difference for me to ascend with.
[/ QUOTE ]
get new boots
[ QUOTE ]
Hey Mr. Tom D. does that mean that my foot pantin (with teeth) is not a good idea? I cant seem to get a good lock with my boots and the foot pantin made a big difference for me to ascend with.
[/ QUOTE ]
get new boots
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Re: Hmmmmm, interesting
Long days and short nights makes for no time at the TB Cafe
The Pantin can't be counted on as a life support because the climber would end up hanging upside down if things went bad. And...the cam opens up far enough for ropes to sneak out between the cam and the u-shaped part. Even with a biner as a keeper I wouldn't want to hear that anyone is counting on the Pantin as life support.
Long days and short nights makes for no time at the TB Cafe
The Pantin can't be counted on as a life support because the climber would end up hanging upside down if things went bad. And...the cam opens up far enough for ropes to sneak out between the cam and the u-shaped part. Even with a biner as a keeper I wouldn't want to hear that anyone is counting on the Pantin as life support.
- Location
- Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Re: Hmmmmm, interesting
> Long days and short nights makes for no time at the TB Cafe
what hemisphere are you in, Tom?
> Long days and short nights makes for no time at the TB Cafe
what hemisphere are you in, Tom?
Re: toothed vs ridged
[ QUOTE ]
the spikes just dig in and catch on the outer core rather than a camming method clinching and effectivly crushing the strong inner core
[/ QUOTE ]
There are two basic designs of rope grabs, with several variations.
There are the toothed ascenders - like the Basic, the Croll, the various handled ascenders, and the Pantin - which rely on a spring to keep the teeth in constant contact with the rope sheath so that, when downward force is applied to the shell, the teeth instantly dig in and grab. These devices, designed for ascending a fixed line with no slippage, are generally open-shelled for ease of attachment and removal making them less reliable as life support and are always used with at least two points of contact on the rope.
Then there are the true cammed rope grabs - such as the Petzl Microcender (and the Rescucender it was based on), the Gibbs, the PMI Progressor, and the CMI Ropewalker (which will take up to 5/8" rope) - which use a type 1 lever to squeeze the rope with the cam with a force proportional to the force of the load. These cams have the load suspended by the lever end of the cam rather than by the shell and they universally have a closed shell, making them both stronger and safer.
Many tests have demonstrated that these true cams, typically with a ridged contact surface and often an opposing depression in the shell in which to pinch the rope, do far less harm to the rope under shock loading.
The mini versions, such as the Tibloc and the RopemanII are designed to be extremely lightweight and more for emergency use. They will not take a rope larger than 11mm.
- Robert
[ QUOTE ]
the spikes just dig in and catch on the outer core rather than a camming method clinching and effectivly crushing the strong inner core
[/ QUOTE ]
There are two basic designs of rope grabs, with several variations.
There are the toothed ascenders - like the Basic, the Croll, the various handled ascenders, and the Pantin - which rely on a spring to keep the teeth in constant contact with the rope sheath so that, when downward force is applied to the shell, the teeth instantly dig in and grab. These devices, designed for ascending a fixed line with no slippage, are generally open-shelled for ease of attachment and removal making them less reliable as life support and are always used with at least two points of contact on the rope.
Then there are the true cammed rope grabs - such as the Petzl Microcender (and the Rescucender it was based on), the Gibbs, the PMI Progressor, and the CMI Ropewalker (which will take up to 5/8" rope) - which use a type 1 lever to squeeze the rope with the cam with a force proportional to the force of the load. These cams have the load suspended by the lever end of the cam rather than by the shell and they universally have a closed shell, making them both stronger and safer.
Many tests have demonstrated that these true cams, typically with a ridged contact surface and often an opposing depression in the shell in which to pinch the rope, do far less harm to the rope under shock loading.
The mini versions, such as the Tibloc and the RopemanII are designed to be extremely lightweight and more for emergency use. They will not take a rope larger than 11mm.
- Robert
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Re: toothed vs ridged
Yoav,
My comment wasn't geographic it was related to my workdays
Robert,
Thanks for taking the time to post about the differences in ascenders.
Yoav,
My comment wasn't geographic it was related to my workdays
Robert,
Thanks for taking the time to post about the differences in ascenders.
- Location
- Home of the New Jersey Devils
Re: toothed vs ridged
From what I have heard, everything Rescueman said is exactly right. I would also tend to think that ascender use (in trees) will be less of a concern than the other conditions our ropes see (i.e. friction damage, sap and pitch, handsaw nicks....) So, if you retire your lines as recommended, they won't ever see the day that they are too ascender-picked before they are retired.
It would also be worth mentioning that you should never expose yourself to a factor 1+ fall on ascenders either. And you need to retire a rope if it has captured your weight in a substantial fall as well.
From what I have heard, everything Rescueman said is exactly right. I would also tend to think that ascender use (in trees) will be less of a concern than the other conditions our ropes see (i.e. friction damage, sap and pitch, handsaw nicks....) So, if you retire your lines as recommended, they won't ever see the day that they are too ascender-picked before they are retired.
It would also be worth mentioning that you should never expose yourself to a factor 1+ fall on ascenders either. And you need to retire a rope if it has captured your weight in a substantial fall as well.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Re: toothed vs ridged
Are you still planning on using the Basic for an adjuster on your lanyard? To me, that isn't a wise choice. There are better options. Some kind of closed system is better.
Are you still planning on using the Basic for an adjuster on your lanyard? To me, that isn't a wise choice. There are better options. Some kind of closed system is better.
- Location
- georgetown ontario canada
Re: toothed vs ridged
A great reason to use a ridged cam for a lanyard as opposed to a toothed ascender is that the toothed one will be harder to adjust because the teeth will catch when trying to let out slack. That would be a real pain in the butt. I have never used a positioner but swear by my gillion.
Dave
A great reason to use a ridged cam for a lanyard as opposed to a toothed ascender is that the toothed one will be harder to adjust because the teeth will catch when trying to let out slack. That would be a real pain in the butt. I have never used a positioner but swear by my gillion.
Dave
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