Ariel rescue

Welcome RescueRat!

I agree with you. Would you elaborate on your ideas?

I feel that the event doesn't necessarily allow for what should happen in a real life rescue.

Real life high angle rescuers carefully stabilize and move the victim using special first aid and rescue rigging techniques and equipment.

I think I would just spike up on belay and have the ground person lower the victim off of a porta-wrap.

The best approach is probably somewhere in between and seems dependent on the type of emergency.

Is five minutes enough time to demonstrate proper aerial rescue practices?
 
I am in no way capable of putting my 2 cents in here BUT i think:

you are in a comp - this is not real

IF real you would adjust differently as all have stated above.


I was involved with ONE rescue and that was FOR ME

When it happened my rescuer was IN TREE already with me

BUT he talked to me the ENTIRE TIME - ASKING questions and TALKING, Telling me what he was DOING and Asking me questions and talking. EVEN once we were on the ground he was talking to me.

SO maybe it is NOT HOW to get the victim out of the tree in the speed BUT JUST HOW you talk to them and tell them what is going on, no matter if they can hear you are not. that voice of calmness sure helped me to stay calm and to also understand what my rescurer was doing and why.

TALK TO THEM

Believe me it made me feel SO MUCH BETTER that he was TALKING to me

thanks (back to my branch for now)

jz
 
Talking to the victim is a wonderful thing. I encourage it whether they are conscious or not. Calling out the condition of the tree, ropes, potential hazzards, etc... is a wonderful thing - it keeps rescuer safety in the front of your mind. We don't need two victims!

I understand that this is a competition. However, what gets practiced is what will be done in an actual emergency. Ariel Rescue involves much more than simply getting the victim to the ground. Care must be given to insure that no further harm is done - this would include immobilizing any broken bones and/or taking c-spine precautions.

Yes, I understand that some of these things are beyond the general training of most climbers, and if that is the case the victim should not be moved until FD/EMS is on the scene - and they may or may not want you involved in the rescue.

Is a fun event to watch, and it's a valuable skill set to have. I just wish more emphasis was given to reinforcing good habits and protocols.

R.R.
 
as jerseygirl says, its not real its a comp! and although we want to reflect best pratice,its never going to be perfect for everyone.
rescue rat, if you look at the rules you will see that the EMS has arrived on scene and has instructed the climber to bring the casuality to the ground.
spaceghost, five minutes is not enough time, but at the ITCC because of the number of climbers there has to be some limit, there is no reason that at local level you cannot extend the time.
i think that things have moved on a lot since the old stile crash rescues and comps are not a substitute for training and will never be, but its the only place you get to see what others are doing, new ideas, new equipment ect.
without comptition you lose development
 
When I've been involved in setting up the AR I've chosen a simple, non-life threatening scenario. The simplest scenario is that the climber's hands/arms have cramped so that they can't operate their friction hitch. As long as the victim's condition doesn't worsen, hard to imagine cramps becoming life threatening, there is no real need for any sort of advanced first aid.
 
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When I've been involved in setting up the AR I've chosen a simple, non-life threatening scenario. The simplest scenario is that the climber's hands/arms have cramped so that they can't operate their friction hitch. As long as the victim's condition doesn't worsen, hard to imagine cramps becoming life threatening, there is no real need for any sort of advanced first aid.

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Maybe there is a need for a standard scenario, then. A scenario such as you descirbed does eliminate much (if not all) of the patient care issues.

At the TCCs I've attended the climbers were told, "You have an unresponsive co-worker in the tree. You have five minutes to get him down." The clock starts and the climber says something to effect of "You go call 911 and let me know when EMS arrives!"

My concern (as I have stated previously) is that most climbers are not properly trained for life-threatening situations. Practice DOES NOT make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect. I have observed climbers at this event that have caused further "injury" to the victim by such things as slamming the victim into branches, hard landings, landing on top of the victim, or grabbing the victim's heads to turn the body into a more favorable position.

What's going to happen if in a few weeks or months when an actual emergency happens at a job site? A climber hasn't had proper training, but thinks, "Hey... I scored high in the areal rescue event, I can save him!" Or worse yet, "Oooo, I watched the areal rescue event at the TCC last fall, I know what to do!"

Now, before you start flaming me with such comments as "good climbers know their limitations and level of training and know not to perform actions they can't do..." In my 20 years of emergency service I have been on enough scenes to tell you that:
1) Not everyone is a good as they think they are (applies to all professions, not just climbers).
2) The rush of adrenaline to our bloodstream during an emergency sends the blood to our large muscle groups (arms and legs) to prepare us for "fight or flight". This means that the blood supply to our BRAINS IS REDUCED. So when it matters most, our thinking is at its worst!!!
3) Some people just want to be a hero.

Again, the AR event is a fun one to watch, I just think there should be some changes in the area of patient care. Just my two cents...

Tim
 
RR,

You and I are thinking along the same lines.

In my experience, in the ITCC the scenarios is carefully constructed so that there is little or no first aid required in the tree. In chapter comps there isn't always that same concern. Since the TCC is viewed as a blueprint for what can or should be done in the workplace there is the very real possibility that a climber could do more extensive injury to the victim by 'rescuing' them rather than stabilizing.

When I teach EHAP I strongly recommend that everyone take at least a First Responder type class so that they have a decent knowledge of doing proper assessments and triage. In some FR classes basic transport skills are taught too.
 
My recent AR (TCC) experience also beckons me to chime in. Why do judges/technicians elect more often than not to set up a "real world work situation" that includes an incredibally stupid setup? Kudos to Mahk Adams, any AR I have ever participated in which he help set up was closer to realistic. How many people climb on brand new 1/2 inch lines and split tails- while using a GRCS and or other devices that would lead one to believe the climber would elect to use a better line. Who has ever done a real AR? We should complie statistics and develop a "real world work situation" IE rope used, most common friction hitch, body position, distance of access line to body. Make a current model and adjust each comp accordingly. I am ashamed to say that the pracctice sessions leading up to the TCC was based on the "setup being ""tough"" " rather than the actual situation. The TCC started in '76 as a Rescue Jamboree, maybe we should revisit that and refocus on the victim, real world communication, and medical advances that give us more information about how we should handle the victim- not on a "tuff setup that'll giv um hell"
 
I wonder how often an access line is set and left in a tree.

My gut feeling is that if all of the competitors, judges and techs who are involved with the chapter and local comps all of the way to the ITCC there would be no more than a handful of climbers who left an access line in a high percentage of the trees that are climbed.

AR has been the event with the most tweaking and planning in order to make it run well and fit the TCC format. When we get right down to it, how muchof the TCC is close to the real workaday world? Unless a climber needs to go back into a tree that was just pruned within the last three months all of them have sprouts and a thick canopy. Not the skinned-out Throwline tree that we use. Don't get me wrong....this isn't an indictment of the TCC setup or event. Just that most of the events don't reflect the world we return to on Monday.
 
I try to roll out the same on Mon- Fri as I do @ a TCC. Why wouldn't you set an access line on a regular basis? The event I would utilized the least in real world settings is Belayed Speed Climb, but that may change now with my new location. I footlock for entry, and have also seen some thick throwline event setups. My gripe is that the technology and equipment is stuck in a previous generation when it comes to most AR Comps, why not make is a true real world simulation?

PS- Only 1 access line set in the masters @ the NH TCC.
 
The real real world rescue situation probably will involve a fireman and a ladder truck..not a professional tree climber going after another climber. That doesn't make the event pointless. In fact one of the things I did several years ago was placed a set of climbing gear and gaffs in every one of my vehicles. (If you wonder about the gaffs-I realized that in the unlikely event I ever need to have my gear to recue someone there is a high probability that it will be a utility pole climber.)
The access line at a TCC has a whole lot more to do with running a timed event efficiently than representing the situation a rescuer will likely be faced with.....but it also makes some of the attendees start thinking about setting up there work situations with better rescue potential.
 
I agree with both those reasons for using the preinstalled line.

There's another reason. As a judge this year, I became more aware of how important communication is: we were judging the climbers on how effectively they managed the entire scenario. Unfortunately, very few communicated with a victim they were told was conscious, and few communicated with the ground once they reached the victim. I wanted to hear them ask the victim what was wrong, and then relay it to the emergency personel. I think this lack of communication is due to the fact that, even with an access line, most competitors concentrate so hard on their climbing and mechanics of rescue during the event. If they had to set a line, too, in addition to climbing one, the chance to practice communicating well would be even more lost. Most climbers don't need to practice setting a line.

One other thought, about the scenario, now stated in the rules, that EMTs are already present. In most real world cases, I'm not going to wait for them to arrive before starting a rescue attempt. So, I bent the rule a little, and announced the EMT's arrival during the rescue, to keep the climbers' minds on the big picture.
 
I don't want my point misconstrued. I agree totally and whole heartedly with an access line for all climbs. What I am trying to convey is a legitimate setup at competitons. The objective is to rescue the victim, communicate well, move gracefully and show knowledge- not wrestle with a setup that makes on sense. Honestly if the pre installed line was poorly placed, who would consider resetting? Maybe old school judges are afraid of change- "no style or innovation points from me, I'll fix htat with this nasty setup!"
 
Dont get to set in your ways thinking that t he fire department is going to get you down all the time. I run with the fire house and know for a fact that most of the trees around my local will not be climbed by a firefighter. Nor will the ladders be able to reach the vic in a safe way.
 
Aerial Rescue event is a dish best served cold.


No wait, that's revenge.



Well, anyway, I just got back from the KY TCC, and I was head judge in AR. I was also head judge in AR in Ohio this past summer. My biggest critique of climbers entering the ring is a rushed pre-climb inspection. In KY, 2 out of 20 climbers actually walked ALL the way around the trunk of the tree to inspect the tree. Most just walked a little to the right and a little to the left and announced that the tree is sound and safe to climb.

I sincerely hope that the preclimb inspections made in day to day climbing operations go more in depth.

This event simulates the real world in no way. It is a competition to see who can score the most points by studying the scoring sheet, and knowing what judges are looking for when scoring. I like the AR, I think it is one of the best events for spectators to watch, because the objective is so clear - get the dummy down out of the tree quickly and safely.

In today's TCCs, the goal should be to get all of the climbers through the prelims and onto the masters challenge. Making the AR more realistic could be an exercise of futility, for the purpose of a TCC.


with that said, I think companies would do well to try to simulate a more true to life scenario where more factors can be added and time is not so much of an issue.

SZ
 
As a past chair/judge etc I totally agree about moving competitors through the prelims. I also think the ground game in AR is critical as in work. My feeling is that some judges set the event up for failure not information exchange and tecnological advances which could make AR's in real life safer and more effective.
 
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with that said, I think companies would do well to try to simulate a more true to life scenario where more factors can be added and time is not so much of an issue.
SZ

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Well said SZ. I couldn't agree more.
Time should be of no value in a real life AR, unless the victim is NOT breathing. Secure the victim to the tree, stay with the victim in the tree assuring them they are fine and everything is going to be fine. Don'y move the victim until EMS arrives and tells you to do so.
 
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Time should be of no value in a real life AR, unless the victim is NOT breathing. Secure the victim to the tree, stay with the victim in the tree assuring them they are fine and everything is going to be fine. Don't move the victim until EMS arrives and tells you to do so.

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AMEN!
 
I try to incorporate different scenarios in training. It is important to consider electrical hazards, bucket work, and other situations such as having to lift a climber or transfer the dummy to another climbing line as part of training. I think that the situation given by the TCC rules covers the basics of what anyone attempting a rescue must know. These different scenarios build off of that. Eg. Climber inspecting the tree--"I don't see any electrical hazards, the tree looks safe, climbers line is CUT? Snap, now what?" You won't see that in a comp. I agree that the competitions must move quickly and they are a great show of ingenuity and skill, but we all must remember that it may not be that situation on your next job site. You have to teach the whole process, from the ground, up, so that the climber is able to recognize the dangers present to the injured and themself before any one leaves the ground.
 
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