Are We Shooting Ourselves in the Foot?

Fairfield

Fairfield

Participating member
Location
Bucks County pa USA
We all know how when accidents happen the insurance rates for the business can be effected from it. When someone in the work area has a bad track record or a few do that can effect the rates of the whole area as well. Then you have the companies that know this yet price jobs at an unrealistic rate. That in turn has the crew leaders in a position to either rush to make the time for the job bid or deal with (doing the right thing) the bosses or reps when you are over the time and the company sees that as lost money.

Obviously you need to find a healthy balance where safety is first followed by still making the company a profit. At what point though does a crew or a climber tell the powers that you only can go so fast and that to expect any more is asking for an accident or worse. IMO we can tell a customer a price and say that is the rate, but at the end of the day the market sets the value to the work we do monetarily speaking. We can say it is worth $X but if the market is only willing to go up to $Y then it is what it is, why push a crew harder because of that? Think of it this way, GoPro was asking $400 for the Sessions cam when it first cam out.... the market (you) said bull it is not worth that and did not buy it. In turn GoPro was forced to drop the price after only a few weeks of its release. The market set the price.
I don't understand how this should in some way dictate the speed of a crew, it may be that I am working for a company that is biting off too much as well and I am more fit for a smaller Mom and Pop shop...... OK, rant over, back to film and photo editing.
 
The mistake is talking about the pace instead of the safety factor. You can work safely and productively once you've made it a habit. Do the work with safety as the first consideration. You'll find other ways to improve efficiency and overall productivity. If your crew leader is telling you to forgo safe work practices then refer to the company's stated policy on safety. Give a clear logical reason for taking the approach. They'll get the message.

The GoPro analogy may apply to a certain extent but too often its lazy selling to compete on price. People pay more for all sorts of services and products when they see or are shown the value of it to them and their value proposition. That takes more skill and effort on the part of the sales rep. Part of that value proposition is quality work with safety as a given. How many clients actually want to have someone carried off their property on a stretcher or in a body bag? Not any. Like the climber finding a way to be more productive without compromising safety so too will the sales reps. Let the pressure to placed where it rightfully belongs, not on your life.
 
Is it possible to keep a constant pace everyday? Or do some days you take it easy because the jobs aren't so bad and the bids are good? Then some days you have to "turn it on" and push yourself to accomplish the task? My company expects a lot of work done in a short amount of time but when I'm going as fast as I can with all my focus, I do that for me as a personal challenge. This isn't a job you can auto pilot through. You have to be mentally and physically ready to do an extreme job where your safety is in your own hands. I don't believe there is a set of rules that are going to promise 100% safety. The only promise is a climber showing up with the mentality that they are going to succeed with their skills and determination. If your hoping to make it in this industry by getting spoon fed right and wrong from senior climbers you ll never make it. You have to do your own homework on all aspects and if the more experienced guys give you some tips consider it a bonus. As soon as your feet leave the ground your in charge of your safety.
 
There's more to it than just one job or one day or even one week. Pacing is vital. We work smart, look for the most efficient way to get the job done. We know what we want to do in a day dollar wise and the man hour estimates usually reflects that. Sometimes when we walk on a job we can see that it's been underbid. We'll look at every way to shorten the time to get the work done but that doesn't mean racing in the tree.

One of the things I don't agree with that I've heard bantered around is the idea of leaving it all on the job. Well, I have a commute of 1-2 hrs at the end of the day, dinner to cook for the family, meetings for my volunteer work, etc.... To be too wiped out at the end of the day is just putting others at risk on the drive home and then leaving me exhausted for everything else. The volunteer stuff I do has brought in business so, it benefits the company too.

Safe work practices are just like any other aspects of the work you learn. Once learned and incorporated it's second nature. You'll not think of it as an option to eliminate if you are looking for a short cut.
 
I'm a younger guy and I know sometimes I can get ridiculous with how fast I want to make myself go but if your between 20 and 35 years old in this industry you better come to work ready to bust ass everyday so when your that 40,45 or 50 year old foreman you don't have to work as hard cause that young "go getter" is trying to do everything.
 
Jem4417 said:
I'm a younger guy and I know sometimes I can get ridiculous with how fast I want to make myself go but if your between 20 and 35 years old in this industry you better come to work ready to bust ass everyday so when your that 40,45 or 50 year old foreman you don't have to work as hard cause that young "go getter" is trying to do everything.
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Have you ever heard the story of the young bull and the old bull?

Bust your brain not your ass. That way you can get more done with less brute force.
 
treehumper said:
Have you ever heard the story of the young bull and the old bull?

Bust your brain not your ass. That way you can get more done with less brute force.
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I'm with you. Remember if u are in this game for the long run you have to work smarter. Because you have to do it all over again the next day, week, year etc... I'm 34 and started climbing when I was 18, I expend much less effort and get more done theses days. Equipment and proper planning also go a long way. A good bid doesn't hurt
 
Always. By pacing yourself and planning out the day is working hard, your just using what makes use different than any other mammals. Working smarter is always the best option. I find anytime I have to rush through anything, it was because somebody else screwed up something and they feel that me working faster will somehow make them less responsible.
 
Jem4417 said:
so when is the appropriate time to work as hard and fast as you can?
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Are we at war? Is this a battle? No? You do this day in day out and you have a life that others want you to participate in. Watch any of the top competition climbers, they do it safe and quick. The key is safety first. And it is never an option.
 
Obviously safe. I'm not saying put yourself in a position to get hurt. It's like people are scared of the word fast though. Of all the tree work you've ever done, have you ever tried to go as "quickly" as you could physically and mentally and couldn't settle for less then your best? You act as if this whole industry is not based upon speed. It's unfortunate that it is but it's not going to change. Every new piece of gear is based on faster, every machine is built for more. Training your body to be at a peak to perform faster is just another piece to the puzzle.
 
"Fast is slow, and smooth is fast". This is from my father who repeated this to me a million times growing up. He taught it to the Rangers he trained the Cav Scoutts he trained and the men under him during his two tours of Koreia and two tours of Nam. His point was by attempting to speed through a task you end up making more mistakes or doing a poorer job then you would if you just worked smoothly. Speed comes with experiance, with experience comes the understanding of pace.
As for equipment being built for "speed", it's only "faster" due to the design being more efficient or working smoother (revert the smoother back to first statement). The mentality that you need to work faster due to some demand is all in the head, but if you continue to act on it then you just dig yourself a hole for the future you to have to work out of. If everyone makes it a point to just blow jobs out as fast as you can then the industry financially on the back end is digging a hole. The customer will expect that price norm with that so called speed. You give a price at $1000 Because you can go as quick as possible. Problem being that you can't keep that up forever..... So now you say to yourself, I need to go at a smoother pace but that means raising the price due to extra time tat normally was not there. Your customers may not like that due to the president you esstablished with them. Why did this all happen? Because you thought you HAD to go as fast as possible at one point. Shooting yourself in the foot.
 
Jobs are bid lower because of low overhead, no insurance, cheap equipment, paying workers under the table, no benefits to pay for, no office help to pay for or lot to rent for equipment. If you want to work for a company that promises year round work, employee benefits, paid holidays, bonuses, 401 ks, room to advance out of the field, education opportunities, gear reimbursement, and other Percs your gonna have to work harder because they have to bid jobs at a higher price with less hours to pay for all that stuff. Sure a bad bid happens no matter what but if you start your day off trying to go as "quickly" as you can so when you get to that hour long bid at 2 o'clock that clearly is gonna take two hours your already ahead of schedule and don't have to worry about getting home late for all the stuff we have to get done after work... No body ever complains how fast your going on Friday when it's five o'clock and your still trying to get done an underbid. Just saying
 
My two bits to this is a phrase used in racing but totally sums up most of what you guys are saying "slow is smooth, smooth is fast." My opinion the best method of tree work is no wasted movements, none, ever. If you walk to the truck for a drink what can be taken back what is the next tool that is going to be needed that I can bring on my return. Is that saw dull causing you to work harder let's get that changed. Let me put the excess of this rope in the bag so we can cease dragging it around and so on and so forth. Didn't read fairfields post prior but couldn't agree more.
 
I think it's still a fear of the word fast. But I agree with no wasted movements for sure. You have to be hustling all day long when your doing this work. It's to physical to not. If you don't keep your heart rate up your body will not stay loose and that's when you have more of a chance of getting injured or cramping up or using poor mechanics when lifting something or deciding to take something too big because your too tired to climb more and make smaller cuts. I'm not advocating being a cowboy or trying to lift huge logs over your head but if you treat your body like an athlete you will be able to perform faster. From raking to dragging brush to climbing. If you make it a work out and recognize where your weaker you can only get stronger
 
The insurance and overhead and all that jazz is a base factor, a starting point to pricing. Plenty of companies that have these things yet still low ball jobs just to win them. JEM and my company is falling into this spot at the moment. And what is the result? Guys having the thought they need to go faster ( that equals fixs ups more often then not), and guys now being accused of "milking the clock" when they don't get the job finished in the dollar bid time. Yup, that sounds like a winning plan to me. I don't think anyone is scared of the word fast. We just know what the difference between fast to be fast is and fast due to skill and quality is.
 
The fastest guys I know are the calmest. One particular buzzer is very fun to watch and work with because he has the experience to be thinking about this move, and how it leads into the next 4-5 (maybe more?) moves, and he has thousands of little tricks that save a couple of minutes each. No movement is ever wasted, and he never appears to breathe hard or lose his focus and composure.
I know guys who are fast because of power, but they also are very emotional and get bent out of shape or stressed, feeling the time crunch always.
I love the slow is smooth smooth is fast, and i would like to add focus and composure to our list of keywords
 
Some things you need to take your time on, like flush cutting a gnarly stump, or maneuvering with a bad angle on a limb walk or organizing your throw line for a good throw to avoid a huge tangle but your not thinking in your head that you want to go slow
 
Taking your time and working intelligently is the key to generating a smooth work environment. Once things are running smoothly and they are organized the job becomes easy and there is a good flow to things.

JontreeHI said:
I know guys who are fast because of power, but they also are very emotional and get bent out of shape or stressed, feeling the time crunch always.
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I was working with a guy a few weeks ago trying to "show him the ropes." He had only been up trees a dozen times and wanted to learn more so he came along. He was trying to be the guy Jontree is talking about. Sometimes when you try to hard you end up having to try harder if that makes sense. When I first started climbing every little thing that didn't go my way was the end of the world. It was never anything major just "oh my rope somehow got totally tangled around some suckers" stuff like that became the worst thing that had ever happened to me. I used to be pouring sweat struggling with the little stuff in a tree until one day I found my "inner peace" if you will. When I ended up giving the guy some feedback at the end of the day the first thing I said was "slow is smooth and smooth is fast." Getting worked up about little problems ends up wasting energy and you lose focus on the job, remaining calm and addressing every issue as so will end up yielding higher production.

When people rush and get frustrated that is when people get hurt or property gets damaged.

I talk to my boss about it pretty often. Whenever it is a tree you aren't real sure you should be tied into and I find a different way to do it we end up looking at the tree and seeing it probably would have been alright. However every time I point out the money lost taking extra precautions is way less than that of a injury to someone on the crew or damage to property. The conversation goes well every time.

Perhaps the answer is to have a good relationship with the guy in charge.
 
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