treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
I guess firefighters in your neck of the woods should have the option to wear protective gear too?
ANSI Z133 Public Comment period
- Thread starter Tom Dunlap
- Start date
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Maple Leaf Tree Service has found that we make it optional for our climbers to wear the chainsaw protective chaps; however due to 100+ temperatures for nearly half the year we have found most climbers would rather stay home in the air condition rather than wear more heat containing restrictive gear.
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thanx! i'm glad i'm not the only one who dosen"t want to climb in a portable sauna. if you cool climate climbers want to wear them year round, so be it. don"t push it on the rest of us.
Maple Leaf Tree Service has found that we make it optional for our climbers to wear the chainsaw protective chaps; however due to 100+ temperatures for nearly half the year we have found most climbers would rather stay home in the air condition rather than wear more heat containing restrictive gear.
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thanx! i'm glad i'm not the only one who dosen"t want to climb in a portable sauna. if you cool climate climbers want to wear them year round, so be it. don"t push it on the rest of us.
it seems to me that maybe some of you people have some personal vendettas w/the whole chainsaw pants in trees. on the ground you have more factors that come into play which makes leg protection more sensible. in the tree you are supposed to have 2 tie-in points and 2 hands on the saw. if you don't feel safe when you unsnap your saw, maybe you need to reposition your body or rethink your game plan. all incidents are preventable. and if you've cut yourself before, think back real hard and you'll probable remember something you did, that lead to your accident. more laws doesn't make a safer world. better teaching does.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
Better teaching is good, better students helps too. But alas, only about 54% of students actually get it and can apply their new found knowledge and only 3% are ace students, while better teachers are about as abundant. Now, lets throw in production pressures, fatigue and any other distractions encountered. Where does this get you? To the point of beefing up regulations that govern PPE. Considering the disregard for the OSHA regs that stand now and I really don't think adding another will make a whole lot of difference.
For the record, there's no vendetta save for the one to keep our insurance rates in check. The only way we do that is by becoming more professional in how we adhere to the regulations governing us.
For the record, there's no vendetta save for the one to keep our insurance rates in check. The only way we do that is by becoming more professional in how we adhere to the regulations governing us.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
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I guess firefighters in your neck of the woods should have the option to wear protective gear too?
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I agree with your sentiment but I don't think that the metaphor works here.
Something that is missing from American arborculture, and society in general, is risk assessment. A proper RA might look at the risk of getting cut with a saw in the tree and balance that against heat related fatigue.
The work we do is risky but there are MUCH more risky and dangerous professions. Think of the healthcare workers dealing with bodily fluids and sharp things that cut. Hepatitis scares me...chainsaws and handsaws have my respect.
After reading Awakening posts for years I think that all of them came about from self-admitted stupid mistakes, myself included. If I was 'that' scared of the risks of treework I wouldn't do it. A long time ago I shelved my cavalier and invicible mind set.
I guess firefighters in your neck of the woods should have the option to wear protective gear too?
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with your sentiment but I don't think that the metaphor works here.
Something that is missing from American arborculture, and society in general, is risk assessment. A proper RA might look at the risk of getting cut with a saw in the tree and balance that against heat related fatigue.
The work we do is risky but there are MUCH more risky and dangerous professions. Think of the healthcare workers dealing with bodily fluids and sharp things that cut. Hepatitis scares me...chainsaws and handsaws have my respect.
After reading Awakening posts for years I think that all of them came about from self-admitted stupid mistakes, myself included. If I was 'that' scared of the risks of treework I wouldn't do it. A long time ago I shelved my cavalier and invicible mind set.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
Tom, every profession has it's scarey element. For those that work in that field it is something that they have a healthy respect for not a fear. My electricity teacher in high school put it well, when you're afraid you react with fear and panic. When you respect the risk you take you'll behave more rationally when faced with the danger. Words I've lived by.
I guess everyone has a different tolerance for heat. I work with a guy who complains bitterly about it. He wears lightweight jeans and a t-shirt with sleeves cut off. To me, it's a matter of mindset and proper management of hydration and cooling.
What we wear on the rest of our body is, for now, up to us. As mentioned earlier though, body positioning is key to what is exposed to the risk.
I guess everyone has a different tolerance for heat. I work with a guy who complains bitterly about it. He wears lightweight jeans and a t-shirt with sleeves cut off. To me, it's a matter of mindset and proper management of hydration and cooling.
What we wear on the rest of our body is, for now, up to us. As mentioned earlier though, body positioning is key to what is exposed to the risk.
deevo
Been here a while
- Location
- Horseshoe Valley, Ontario, Canada
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With all due respect I find the US regulations for chainsaw protection way behind the times.In Canada we are required to wear it both on the ground and aloft and to me it is a no brainer(why wouldnt you want as much protection as possible).I often hear fellow tree buzzers critique posted videos etc. about the lack of ppe but many of these same critics climb in unprotective Arborwear,Dickies etc.Seems a tad hypocritical.The US is a huge market for arborist supplies,surprised somebody has not cashed in on this item.
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Good points.... I wear my Gladiators for climbing/removals. My Arborwears for trims/pruning (hand saw stuff) even though my sugoi will cut you pretty good. Bucket truck I wear my Arborwear pants as well. When on ground put on chaps.
With all due respect I find the US regulations for chainsaw protection way behind the times.In Canada we are required to wear it both on the ground and aloft and to me it is a no brainer(why wouldnt you want as much protection as possible).I often hear fellow tree buzzers critique posted videos etc. about the lack of ppe but many of these same critics climb in unprotective Arborwear,Dickies etc.Seems a tad hypocritical.The US is a huge market for arborist supplies,surprised somebody has not cashed in on this item.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good points.... I wear my Gladiators for climbing/removals. My Arborwears for trims/pruning (hand saw stuff) even though my sugoi will cut you pretty good. Bucket truck I wear my Arborwear pants as well. When on ground put on chaps.
6.3.6
"A chain saw shall
be operated with the left hand and thumb gripped firmly around the forward handle and
the right hand and thumb gripped firmly around the rear handle, unless it is not
practicable and the employer demonstrates that a greater hazard is posed by operating the
chain saw that way in that particular situation."
6.3.7
"6.3.7 Arborists shall use a second point of attachment (for example, lanyard or doublecrotched
climbing line) when operating a chain saw in a tree, unless the employer
demonstrates that a greater hazard is posed by using a second point of attachment while
operating a chain saw in that particular situation. Using both ends of a two-in-one lanyard
shall not be considered two points of attachment when using a chain saw."
With many things to "comment" on with the ANSI standard. I feel that chainsaw protection is not protection from poor use of the equipment. The typical MO for use of a saw in a tree puts the saw closer to your upper body than your legs. Statistics bearing out the location of the cuts. Left hand being common, yet the standard permits one hand operation. Is chain saw protection to be required for the left hand? arms?. I would rather they make it required that the operator use 2 hands on the saw than make me wear bulletproofing on my body - which is NOT bulletproofing, but bullet resisting. Saw will cut right on through a set of chaps - demo it. Skills, basic rules HAVE to be in place. This standard, while important, is a MINIMUM and the more it is cited, the more it will have the weight of law (and they are working on making it OSHA regulation.)
High levels of detail and requirements are likely to lose more people. Give them few rules and ENFORCE THE RULES!!! Require more protection? 90% of the companies don't wear chaps around here including some municipalities. I don't know the stat specifically, but I am pretty sure 60% do not wear hard hats. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Meanwhile, Mr. do it the right way is buying all the required items, being an about using the PPE, its all fine. I WANT my crew to be protected for certain, but where will I lose them? Arm chaps?, Chain saw protected gloves? Chain mail armor? Just keep 2 hands on the saw - NO EXCEPTIONS!!! GET RID OF THE WIGGLE ROOM IN THE STANDARD.
Stepping off soap box.
"A chain saw shall
be operated with the left hand and thumb gripped firmly around the forward handle and
the right hand and thumb gripped firmly around the rear handle, unless it is not
practicable and the employer demonstrates that a greater hazard is posed by operating the
chain saw that way in that particular situation."
6.3.7
"6.3.7 Arborists shall use a second point of attachment (for example, lanyard or doublecrotched
climbing line) when operating a chain saw in a tree, unless the employer
demonstrates that a greater hazard is posed by using a second point of attachment while
operating a chain saw in that particular situation. Using both ends of a two-in-one lanyard
shall not be considered two points of attachment when using a chain saw."
With many things to "comment" on with the ANSI standard. I feel that chainsaw protection is not protection from poor use of the equipment. The typical MO for use of a saw in a tree puts the saw closer to your upper body than your legs. Statistics bearing out the location of the cuts. Left hand being common, yet the standard permits one hand operation. Is chain saw protection to be required for the left hand? arms?. I would rather they make it required that the operator use 2 hands on the saw than make me wear bulletproofing on my body - which is NOT bulletproofing, but bullet resisting. Saw will cut right on through a set of chaps - demo it. Skills, basic rules HAVE to be in place. This standard, while important, is a MINIMUM and the more it is cited, the more it will have the weight of law (and they are working on making it OSHA regulation.)
High levels of detail and requirements are likely to lose more people. Give them few rules and ENFORCE THE RULES!!! Require more protection? 90% of the companies don't wear chaps around here including some municipalities. I don't know the stat specifically, but I am pretty sure 60% do not wear hard hats. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Meanwhile, Mr. do it the right way is buying all the required items, being an about using the PPE, its all fine. I WANT my crew to be protected for certain, but where will I lose them? Arm chaps?, Chain saw protected gloves? Chain mail armor? Just keep 2 hands on the saw - NO EXCEPTIONS!!! GET RID OF THE WIGGLE ROOM IN THE STANDARD.
Stepping off soap box.
I think I'm with you here, Tom. Digging into the 133 was a real eye opening experience for us. Ultimately, we found taking the steps to operate with increased safety required more advanced techniques and nicer gear purchases here and there, but it all resulted in better production. Our residential clients usually comment on how well we demonstrate safe operation.
I'm curious as to whether the ANSI-Z133 regs for Cabling&Bracing have been updated?
The old regs for C&B were/are pathetic in my opinion. Specifically their not distinguishing hardwood trees from softwood trees when installing cables with lag bolt hardware.
According to ANSI, installing cables with lags in softwoods like Erythrina and Pines was fine and dandy as long they were installed in healthy wood! What a joke! You can essentially create a ticking timebomb in a client's tree, and be fully ANSI compliant!
My apologies to the ANSI committee if this outrageous oversight on their old regs has been corrected. However when I checked a few years ago, it hadn't been changed, despite my bringing it to their attention in no uncertain terms.
jomoco
The old regs for C&B were/are pathetic in my opinion. Specifically their not distinguishing hardwood trees from softwood trees when installing cables with lag bolt hardware.
According to ANSI, installing cables with lags in softwoods like Erythrina and Pines was fine and dandy as long they were installed in healthy wood! What a joke! You can essentially create a ticking timebomb in a client's tree, and be fully ANSI compliant!
My apologies to the ANSI committee if this outrageous oversight on their old regs has been corrected. However when I checked a few years ago, it hadn't been changed, despite my bringing it to their attention in no uncertain terms.
jomoco
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Cabling and bracing are covered in A300 not Z133.
Thanks for the correction Tom.
Wouldn't happen to know if it's been updated would you?
jomoco
Wouldn't happen to know if it's been updated would you?
jomoco
- Location
- pitts pa
f**k ansi and osha !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Location
- Southington, CT
Guys, Im very new in this TreeBuzz. Love all the differences to ponder. for the topic on ear protection,I thought I would share what has worked for me thus far. Mostly in the warmer seasons, I will use the plugs, myself feel very comfortable re using them and saving them to reuse again and again.As I keep the whole bag of 100 in the Truck. Now in the colder months, I switch to the muffs. when I get a new worker, I simply use the cleaning lysol wipes to clean their PPE and their muffs so they see it being cleaned just as long as their not cracked and soaked all internally, then its time to consider replacing,with new and making your workers feel their worth the new gear.No one has ever complained about the cleaning. but have complained about needing to wear the hearing protection. I want to hear my kids later in life when I am much older! Im wearing mine!
1adkarborist
New member
- Location
- inside the blue line
Even tho ansi mandates helmets i think this may have started with osha. TCIA has a good section on their web site about required PPE in our industry. It is the employers responsibility to protect workers or remove the risk.
allmark
Participating member
This is a very negative post. If you don't like it do something to change it.f**k ansi and osha !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Harder to do with OSHA but easy with ANSI. Go to a meeting and be part of the solution instead of just blurting out useless comments.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Mark,
thanks for coming to the Z133 meetings. It's valuable to have practitioners there to share their knowledge and experience.
thanks for coming to the Z133 meetings. It's valuable to have practitioners there to share their knowledge and experience.
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
Yes! Anyone near NYC, the A300 Tree Care Standard meeting is there oct 7-9. You may not be able to talk; so bring cue cards! o and just-atree-guy, public comment periods are wide open. Commenting requires thought, reading, writing, work, and time. but it's worth it.
so Tom, what's the approximate ratio of active practitioners and total members, and how many of them get to vote?
That right
