So I gather you're saying Cobra does not sell synthetic cabling systems to support static loads that keep their cables extremely taut Tom?
jomoco
jomoco
ANSI and Flammability
- Thread starter guymayor
- Start date
If a 20 lb branch were to fail during a wind event, fall and lodge itself in a lower Y with its butt across a polypropylene synthetic cable, how long could the synthetic cable withstand the sawing motion across it when the wind blows?
A week? A month? A Year?
How long could a steel cable withstand that same abrasion?
Hence supporting trees with materials stronger than the tree itself in terms of abrasion resistance, makes good practical sense in the real world arboreal realm where shed limbs are quite common over the years.
jomoco
A week? A month? A Year?
How long could a steel cable withstand that same abrasion?
Hence supporting trees with materials stronger than the tree itself in terms of abrasion resistance, makes good practical sense in the real world arboreal realm where shed limbs are quite common over the years.
jomoco
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
[/ QUOTE ]Has ANSI decided to throw out the first rule of cabling only structurally compromised limbs?
[/ QUOTE ]
What are you talking about? I do not see that wording in there. Paraphrasing just confuses things--quote the clauses that you have problems with, and state your suggested changes. If your comment is based on a wild scenario, like people and property being saved by burning broken tree parts that are held together by solid steel, it may be met by skepticism.
Still waiting for that helpful comment you're giving the committee there jon...and waiting...you speak of ANSI as if it were a person--what do you mean by ANSI? please reread:
For clarification on unfamiliar sections, look again to the Definitions. See how the concepts fit together, forming an integrated structure. If they don’t fit, consult a dictionary or thesaurus to get a wider context, a better view of the meanings. Consult with a colleague, a chapter member, a mentor, a local expert, to see if they can help sort it out.
Visit http://www.tcia.org/standards/a300.htm to see when that Part is being revised. Public comments are always welcome, but they are best understood when the relevant clause is quoted, and noted by number. Alternate wording--additions, deletions, and changes—should be literally specified.
Like using the A300 itself, when objectives are clearly established, and specifications are accurately written, the work will go well. Cite references, such as publications, images, and documented practice, that support your position. *** Unsupported rants on unprovable philosophy are difficult for outsiders to understand, much less incorporate. ***
If the standard already cautions about durability, would you add flammability? or is flammability a type of durability? If so, your concern is already addressed. what is it you want to say?
[/ QUOTE ]
What are you talking about? I do not see that wording in there. Paraphrasing just confuses things--quote the clauses that you have problems with, and state your suggested changes. If your comment is based on a wild scenario, like people and property being saved by burning broken tree parts that are held together by solid steel, it may be met by skepticism.
Still waiting for that helpful comment you're giving the committee there jon...and waiting...you speak of ANSI as if it were a person--what do you mean by ANSI? please reread:
For clarification on unfamiliar sections, look again to the Definitions. See how the concepts fit together, forming an integrated structure. If they don’t fit, consult a dictionary or thesaurus to get a wider context, a better view of the meanings. Consult with a colleague, a chapter member, a mentor, a local expert, to see if they can help sort it out.
Visit http://www.tcia.org/standards/a300.htm to see when that Part is being revised. Public comments are always welcome, but they are best understood when the relevant clause is quoted, and noted by number. Alternate wording--additions, deletions, and changes—should be literally specified.
Like using the A300 itself, when objectives are clearly established, and specifications are accurately written, the work will go well. Cite references, such as publications, images, and documented practice, that support your position. *** Unsupported rants on unprovable philosophy are difficult for outsiders to understand, much less incorporate. ***
If the standard already cautions about durability, would you add flammability? or is flammability a type of durability? If so, your concern is already addressed. what is it you want to say?
I get it. You guys don't know what the hell I'm talking about right?
Very well, lag yourselves into your "sound" wood of obtuse cluelessness and hope the inevitable doesn't happen on your watch.
Boston Strangler cabling terminations here, get your Boston Strangler cable terminations!
Works great on Alders and Birches! Guaranteed and ANSI approved folks!
Step right up folks!
jomoco
Very well, lag yourselves into your "sound" wood of obtuse cluelessness and hope the inevitable doesn't happen on your watch.
Boston Strangler cabling terminations here, get your Boston Strangler cable terminations!
Works great on Alders and Birches! Guaranteed and ANSI approved folks!
Step right up folks!
jomoco
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
I'm having a problem with where this has come from Jomoco. You raise a specific point about a given product that has come into use. From this a thread of logic is followed. Ok. What I don't see is any research and references to support your conclusions. Have you investigated the product itself? If so, can you provide the studies? Did you contact the manufacturer and ask for any of their product research pertaining to this issue? What about UL? Did you investigate their findings and analyses?
In my experience with cabling I've seen and repaired plenty of failed steel cables. All of these systems dynamic or static are not "one and done" but require ongoing monitoring and maintenance. The Dropped limb abrading a cable of any type would initiate inspection and remediation. Whether that is simply removal of said limb or replacement of a damage cable is determined by the observations.
In every aspect of our lives we are continually exposed to new products that have the potential to improve our existence by addressing an unfulfilled need or want. Whether there are hazards that have been unforeseen or underestimated is for us to discover. Not by speculation leading to conclusion but for it to lead to investigation that will uncover the validity of the concern. Consequently the possible improvement, limitation of use or, banishment of the product would be the inevitable result.
In my experience with cabling I've seen and repaired plenty of failed steel cables. All of these systems dynamic or static are not "one and done" but require ongoing monitoring and maintenance. The Dropped limb abrading a cable of any type would initiate inspection and remediation. Whether that is simply removal of said limb or replacement of a damage cable is determined by the observations.
In every aspect of our lives we are continually exposed to new products that have the potential to improve our existence by addressing an unfulfilled need or want. Whether there are hazards that have been unforeseen or underestimated is for us to discover. Not by speculation leading to conclusion but for it to lead to investigation that will uncover the validity of the concern. Consequently the possible improvement, limitation of use or, banishment of the product would be the inevitable result.
Yes, yes, I see your point TH.
Flammability of polypropylene? Sheer speculation!
Low abrasion resistance of polypropylene? Sheer speculation!
Susceptability of certain tree species to bark and cambium damage from encirclement and garroting forces?
Again I say, nonsense, unprovable, sheer poppycock until proven!
jomoco
Flammability of polypropylene? Sheer speculation!
Low abrasion resistance of polypropylene? Sheer speculation!
Susceptability of certain tree species to bark and cambium damage from encirclement and garroting forces?
Again I say, nonsense, unprovable, sheer poppycock until proven!
jomoco
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
Um, I see your point as well Jomoco. Now how about the research to support your point.
I say, interesting, engaging, hmmmmm.... can you show me more?
That is all anyone here is saying or are you suggesting we all go and do the research?
I say, interesting, engaging, hmmmmm.... can you show me more?
That is all anyone here is saying or are you suggesting we all go and do the research?
- Location
- rhode island
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you a CA?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and I do a lot of cabling.
Are you a CA?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, and I do a lot of cabling.
Actually I was rather expecting my peers here to accept the fact that polypropylene is highly flammable, and that it has an extremely low resistance to abrasion when taut, and that certain trees species like alders and birches are extremely susceptible to girdling forces dislocating their bark and cambiums with as little as 5 hundred lbs of linear force, much less the 4 tons the static synthetic cable is rated for.
As a climber I know that simply stepping on a white alder limb is all it takes to dislocate a section of cambium right down to the xylem heartwood!
Yes, it's quite obvious to me that my expectations were unrealistic and fanciful.
Can you ever forgive me my friends?
jomoco
As a climber I know that simply stepping on a white alder limb is all it takes to dislocate a section of cambium right down to the xylem heartwood!
Yes, it's quite obvious to me that my expectations were unrealistic and fanciful.
Can you ever forgive me my friends?
jomoco
- Location
- rhode island
You still haven't provided us with any info to substantiate your claims. The burden of proof is on you.
Why does a reputable arborist recommend that young transplants only be staked and dynamically braced temporarily Banjo?
What's the driving logic of that arboreal imperative my friend?
jomoco
What's the driving logic of that arboreal imperative my friend?
jomoco
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
[ QUOTE ]
Why does a reputable arborist recommend that young transplants only be staked and dynamically braced temporarily?
[/ QUOTE ]
What are you talking about?
Still waiting for that helpful comment you're giving the committee there jon...and waiting...you speak of ANSI as if it were a person--what do you mean by ANSI? please reread:
Public comments are always welcome, but they are best understood when the relevant clause is quoted, and noted by number. Alternate wording--additions, deletions, and changes—should be literally specified.
Cite references, such as publications, images, and documented practice, that support your position. *** Unsupported rants on unprovable philosophy are difficult for outsiders to understand, much less incorporate. ***
Why does a reputable arborist recommend that young transplants only be staked and dynamically braced temporarily?
[/ QUOTE ]
What are you talking about?
Still waiting for that helpful comment you're giving the committee there jon...and waiting...you speak of ANSI as if it were a person--what do you mean by ANSI? please reread:
Public comments are always welcome, but they are best understood when the relevant clause is quoted, and noted by number. Alternate wording--additions, deletions, and changes—should be literally specified.
Cite references, such as publications, images, and documented practice, that support your position. *** Unsupported rants on unprovable philosophy are difficult for outsiders to understand, much less incorporate. ***
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why does a reputable arborist recommend that young transplants only be staked and dynamically braced temporarily?
[/ QUOTE ]
What are you talking about?
[/ QUOTE ]
Apparently I'm speaking in Sanskrit Guy.
jomoco
[ QUOTE ]
Why does a reputable arborist recommend that young transplants only be staked and dynamically braced temporarily?
[/ QUOTE ]
What are you talking about?
[/ QUOTE ]
Apparently I'm speaking in Sanskrit Guy.
jomoco
- Location
- rhode island
[ QUOTE ]
Why does a reputable arborist recommend that young transplants only be staked and dynamically braced temporarily Banjo?
What's the driving logic of that arboreal imperative my friend?
jomoco
[/ QUOTE ]
It seems like you are trying to steer the conversation away from your need to provide information substantiating your claims. If you want to start a thread about post planting care I will contribute.
Why does a reputable arborist recommend that young transplants only be staked and dynamically braced temporarily Banjo?
What's the driving logic of that arboreal imperative my friend?
jomoco
[/ QUOTE ]
It seems like you are trying to steer the conversation away from your need to provide information substantiating your claims. If you want to start a thread about post planting care I will contribute.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
[ QUOTE ]
Actually I was rather expecting my peers here to accept the fact that polypropylene is highly flammable, and that it has an extremely low resistance to abrasion when taut, and that certain trees species like alders and birches are extremely susceptible to girdling forces dislocating their bark and cambiums with as little as 5 hundred lbs of linear force, much less the 4 tons the static synthetic cable is rated for.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'm sure no one is questioning those assertions but the issue now is one of bringing proof to bear on the subject you've applied these to, namely that synthetic cabling is not suitable for the application it is designed for.
I'm presuming you've got some sort of documentation or sources you could steer me to. Hopefully some links to something online. This would be immensely helpful!
Actually I was rather expecting my peers here to accept the fact that polypropylene is highly flammable, and that it has an extremely low resistance to abrasion when taut, and that certain trees species like alders and birches are extremely susceptible to girdling forces dislocating their bark and cambiums with as little as 5 hundred lbs of linear force, much less the 4 tons the static synthetic cable is rated for.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'm sure no one is questioning those assertions but the issue now is one of bringing proof to bear on the subject you've applied these to, namely that synthetic cabling is not suitable for the application it is designed for.
I'm presuming you've got some sort of documentation or sources you could steer me to. Hopefully some links to something online. This would be immensely helpful!
I have tried to stand back but just can't.
It is clear that steel cable is better than cobra (etc.) as introducing decay and causing dangerous hollows that cause collapse is better, rigid cables allows for the karate-chp effect which is great for causing reiterations and reduced sail, rusting cables are oh so great and leaching zinc is great for killing trees and getting more work for the crane and chipper.
I know quite a few fire captains and cheifs that are awake at night worrying about hollow limbs caused by invasive cabling catching fire over a structure and going aff like a rocket. Likely to spread sparks for miles around.
If only ANSI (oh and the EU standars) would only recognize the dangers of all cabling and bracing and insist that all trees that have a defect be immediatley removed on a priority basis.
It is clear that steel cable is better than cobra (etc.) as introducing decay and causing dangerous hollows that cause collapse is better, rigid cables allows for the karate-chp effect which is great for causing reiterations and reduced sail, rusting cables are oh so great and leaching zinc is great for killing trees and getting more work for the crane and chipper.
I know quite a few fire captains and cheifs that are awake at night worrying about hollow limbs caused by invasive cabling catching fire over a structure and going aff like a rocket. Likely to spread sparks for miles around.
If only ANSI (oh and the EU standars) would only recognize the dangers of all cabling and bracing and insist that all trees that have a defect be immediatley removed on a priority basis.
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
nice reductio ad absurdum mrtree. now, re compliance,
33.5.9 When installing through-hardware, heavy-duty or heat-treated, heavy-duty round steel
washers shall be installed between the nut(s) and the wood (refer to Fig. 33.5.9).
and 33.5.19 Installations shall follow manufacturers’ recommendations.
i use fasteners whose mfrs says they need to go flush to the wood; no mention of a washer. So every time i put on a rigguy or wedgegrip i am noncompliant. What should I do?
33.5.9 When installing through-hardware, heavy-duty or heat-treated, heavy-duty round steel
washers shall be installed between the nut(s) and the wood (refer to Fig. 33.5.9).
and 33.5.19 Installations shall follow manufacturers’ recommendations.
i use fasteners whose mfrs says they need to go flush to the wood; no mention of a washer. So every time i put on a rigguy or wedgegrip i am noncompliant. What should I do?
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