ANSI and Flammability
- Thread starter guymayor
- Start date
So then cast your vote in the poll already!
Then explain your reasoning and logic......if possible?
These are serious issues as anyone who's ever fought a residential house fire can tell you.
Don't be a Pollyanna!
Cast your vote and state your reasoning like a responsible CA is obliged to do!
jomoco
Then explain your reasoning and logic......if possible?
These are serious issues as anyone who's ever fought a residential house fire can tell you.
Don't be a Pollyanna!
Cast your vote and state your reasoning like a responsible CA is obliged to do!
jomoco
- Location
- rhode island
jomoco, can you present one case of fire causing synthetic fiber tree support systems to fail? I'm talking about a documented case. I don't care about what you've seen, I just want some proof that your concern is valid.
If the fact that polypropylene's extremely low resistance to heat has resulted in it being being prohibited for life support use is not enough to dissuade you from advocating its use over people and property?
It becomes a black eye only for those condoning such unwise practices.
I'm trying to do ANSI a favor here guys.
And since I think synthetic cabling systems are foolish from the get go except for temporary emergency use. I think they're snake oil, and their low resistance to fire damage is just on of half a dozen reasons I hold that conviction, as an experienced cabler.
jomoco
It becomes a black eye only for those condoning such unwise practices.
I'm trying to do ANSI a favor here guys.
And since I think synthetic cabling systems are foolish from the get go except for temporary emergency use. I think they're snake oil, and their low resistance to fire damage is just on of half a dozen reasons I hold that conviction, as an experienced cabler.
jomoco
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
I think it's more important that trees with cables have a permanent, visible indicator that the tree contains one or more supports.
Never heard of a burned up cable before.
Never heard of a burned up cable before.
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
[ QUOTE ]
...I'm trying to do ANSI a favor here guys....
[/ QUOTE ]
Then what are you waiting for? Send the subgroup your comment! Skip to the last 3 paragraphs here for some thoughts on doing this: http://www.historictreecare.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/A300.pdf
The form is attached. Do the industry a favor and identify the part that needs changing or adding to, and write your suggested clause.
...I'm trying to do ANSI a favor here guys....
[/ QUOTE ]
Then what are you waiting for? Send the subgroup your comment! Skip to the last 3 paragraphs here for some thoughts on doing this: http://www.historictreecare.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/A300.pdf
The form is attached. Do the industry a favor and identify the part that needs changing or adding to, and write your suggested clause.
- Location
- rhode island
[ QUOTE ]
If the fact that polypropylene's extremely low resistance to heat has resulted in it being being prohibited for life support use is not enough to dissuade you from advocating its use over people and property?
It becomes a black eye only for those condoning such unwise practices.
I'm trying to do ANSI a favor here guys.
And since I think synthetic cabling systems are foolish from the get go except for temporary emergency use. I think they're snake oil, and their low resistance to fire damage is just on of half a dozen reasons I hold that conviction, as an experienced cabler.
jomoco
[/ QUOTE ]
So this is your "weapons of mass destruction" approach. You perceive a potential problem with no evidence and demand that action be taken.
If the fact that polypropylene's extremely low resistance to heat has resulted in it being being prohibited for life support use is not enough to dissuade you from advocating its use over people and property?
It becomes a black eye only for those condoning such unwise practices.
I'm trying to do ANSI a favor here guys.
And since I think synthetic cabling systems are foolish from the get go except for temporary emergency use. I think they're snake oil, and their low resistance to fire damage is just on of half a dozen reasons I hold that conviction, as an experienced cabler.
jomoco
[/ QUOTE ]
So this is your "weapons of mass destruction" approach. You perceive a potential problem with no evidence and demand that action be taken.
Okay Banjo, in your opinion, should cabing in general be limited to only supplemental support of known structural defects in the tree?
Or can it be used simply to mollify perceived dangers of the client, or unscrupulous salesman?
jomoco
Or can it be used simply to mollify perceived dangers of the client, or unscrupulous salesman?
jomoco
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
Is that a poll? If so, I vote for all 3!
Still waiting for that helpful comment you're giving ANSI there jon....
Still waiting for that helpful comment you're giving ANSI there jon....
- Location
- rhode island
[ QUOTE ]
Okay Banjo, in your opinion, should cabing in general be limited to only supplemental support of known structural defects in the tree?
[/ QUOTE ]
No.
[/ QUOTE ]Or can it be used simply to mollify perceived dangers of the client, or unscrupulous salesman?jomoco
[/ QUOTE ]
Please clarify.
Okay Banjo, in your opinion, should cabing in general be limited to only supplemental support of known structural defects in the tree?
[/ QUOTE ]
No.
[/ QUOTE ]Or can it be used simply to mollify perceived dangers of the client, or unscrupulous salesman?jomoco
[/ QUOTE ]
Please clarify.
- Location
- San Diego, Ca. North county
I am confused. Is there a need for Dynamic system's and if so, can you do it with steel cable?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Okay Banjo, in your opinion, should cabing in general be limited to only supplemental support of known structural defects in the tree?
[/ QUOTE ]
No.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then you and I have a very fundamental disagreement on proper cabling and bracing Banjo.
My reasoning is the same as a tree planter who only stakes a newly planted tree long enough for it to develope trunk reaction wood or taper sufficient to support itself with no support, before removing the stakes entirely.
Limiting the use of cabling to only support quantified and known structural defects or damage has been a fundamental cabling principle for the last 100 years.
Are you a CA?
jomoco
[ QUOTE ]
Okay Banjo, in your opinion, should cabing in general be limited to only supplemental support of known structural defects in the tree?
[/ QUOTE ]
No.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then you and I have a very fundamental disagreement on proper cabling and bracing Banjo.
My reasoning is the same as a tree planter who only stakes a newly planted tree long enough for it to develope trunk reaction wood or taper sufficient to support itself with no support, before removing the stakes entirely.
Limiting the use of cabling to only support quantified and known structural defects or damage has been a fundamental cabling principle for the last 100 years.
Are you a CA?
jomoco
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
I've installed...with good conscience...cables in trees with no known structural defects.
I also:
`Wear my helmet while working...even if there aren't overhead dangers
`Wear my seatbelt...even when I drive around a parking lot. Been wearing seatbelts since 1960
`Put on my lanyard when making most handsaw cuts
Most arborists are comfortable using the best product or practice available. These practices are defensible too.
Where did our 'cabling principles' evolve from?
Wooden hulled, natural fiber rigged sailing ships. Find out from Captain Jack Aubrey about rigging...he knew a thing or two...uses chains when needed or knots and splices.
Take a look at the USFS Publication:
Urban Tree Risk Management
This is a peer-reviewed and accepted document. Jack McCoy could be beat down with this document.
http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/uf/utrmm/
Look in Chapter 5 for a write-up about cabling.
I also:
`Wear my helmet while working...even if there aren't overhead dangers
`Wear my seatbelt...even when I drive around a parking lot. Been wearing seatbelts since 1960
`Put on my lanyard when making most handsaw cuts
Most arborists are comfortable using the best product or practice available. These practices are defensible too.
Where did our 'cabling principles' evolve from?
Wooden hulled, natural fiber rigged sailing ships. Find out from Captain Jack Aubrey about rigging...he knew a thing or two...uses chains when needed or knots and splices.
Take a look at the USFS Publication:
Urban Tree Risk Management
This is a peer-reviewed and accepted document. Jack McCoy could be beat down with this document.
http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/uf/utrmm/
Look in Chapter 5 for a write-up about cabling.
[ QUOTE ]
I've installed...with good conscience...cables in trees with no known structural defects.
Look in Chapter 5 for a write-up about cabling.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you also recommend leaving young transplanted trees staked for years Tom?
I read Chapter 5, and it clearly states that the authors do not recommend cabling and bracing of hazard trees unless they are of historic value and can be cabled properly, for life.
I wonder why?
jomoco
I've installed...with good conscience...cables in trees with no known structural defects.
Look in Chapter 5 for a write-up about cabling.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you also recommend leaving young transplanted trees staked for years Tom?
I read Chapter 5, and it clearly states that the authors do not recommend cabling and bracing of hazard trees unless they are of historic value and can be cabled properly, for life.
I wonder why?
jomoco
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
~~~Do you also recommend leaving young transplanted trees staked for years Tom?
Why do you ask?
Its pretty standard procedure to leave cables in for life no matter what the circumstances.
Define 'historic value'. I can make a case for history being made every day that we live.
Why do you always pick fights about every topic that comes up? Is there anything that is right with arborculture?
Why do you ask?
Its pretty standard procedure to leave cables in for life no matter what the circumstances.
Define 'historic value'. I can make a case for history being made every day that we live.
Why do you always pick fights about every topic that comes up? Is there anything that is right with arborculture?
ANSi has more at stake separating the snake oil from their standards than I do Tom.
I've given you my rationale for believing synthetic cabling systems are snake oil, that unless a healthy branch or tree is subjected to the full forces exerted on it by wind and weather, it will not be able to grow sufficient reaction wood to grow strong enough to stand alone without support, for life.
Which is why young transplanted trees should only be staked long enough to develope enough trunk taper to stand alone with no artificial support.
What is your rationale for advocating dynamic synthetic cabling on trees or branches with no perceptible structural defects, flaws or damage?
jomoco
I've given you my rationale for believing synthetic cabling systems are snake oil, that unless a healthy branch or tree is subjected to the full forces exerted on it by wind and weather, it will not be able to grow sufficient reaction wood to grow strong enough to stand alone without support, for life.
Which is why young transplanted trees should only be staked long enough to develope enough trunk taper to stand alone with no artificial support.
What is your rationale for advocating dynamic synthetic cabling on trees or branches with no perceptible structural defects, flaws or damage?
jomoco
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
"ANSi has more at stake separating the snake oil from their standards than I do Tom.
Why do you say that--who do you mean by "ANSI" anyway?
Still waiting for that helpful comment you're giving ANSI there jon...
If the standard already cautions about durability, would you add flammability? or is flammability a type of durability? If so, your concern is already addressed. what is it you want to say?
"I've given you my rationale for believing synthetic cabling systems are snake oil, that unless a healthy branch or tree is subjected to the full forces exerted on it by wind and weather, it will not be able to grow sufficient reaction wood to grow strong enough to stand alone without support, for life."
full forces are needed for sufficient strength? But forces are reduced, and not as full as they could be, all the time, and trees stand for life. therefore your rationale seems overstated; needs some work.
"Which is why young transplanted trees should only be staked long enough to develope enough trunk taper to stand alone with no artificial support.
agreed! So...?
"What is your rationale for advocating dynamic synthetic cabling on trees or branches with no perceptible structural defects, flaws or damage?
do you consider overextension to be a defect? i do, sometimes.
Why do you say that--who do you mean by "ANSI" anyway?
Still waiting for that helpful comment you're giving ANSI there jon...
If the standard already cautions about durability, would you add flammability? or is flammability a type of durability? If so, your concern is already addressed. what is it you want to say?
"I've given you my rationale for believing synthetic cabling systems are snake oil, that unless a healthy branch or tree is subjected to the full forces exerted on it by wind and weather, it will not be able to grow sufficient reaction wood to grow strong enough to stand alone without support, for life."
full forces are needed for sufficient strength? But forces are reduced, and not as full as they could be, all the time, and trees stand for life. therefore your rationale seems overstated; needs some work.
"Which is why young transplanted trees should only be staked long enough to develope enough trunk taper to stand alone with no artificial support.
agreed! So...?
"What is your rationale for advocating dynamic synthetic cabling on trees or branches with no perceptible structural defects, flaws or damage?
do you consider overextension to be a defect? i do, sometimes.
Frankly I'm surprised ANSI or any other authority has swallowed the synthetic dynamic cabling snake oil to the degree they have.
The basic illogic of using a material weaker than the tree it's supporting in terms of thermal and abrasive resistance, makes it an inferior material to support tons of weight over people and property, right out of the starting gate.
And this is doubly true when the system you advocate replacing can withstand those very same thermal and abrasive extremes that defeat synthetic systems so easily.
In other words, rub a taut steel cable with a wood stick like you're playing a violin, then do the same on a taut synthetic cable. Which of the three materials will fail first from abrasion? Which last?
jomoco
The basic illogic of using a material weaker than the tree it's supporting in terms of thermal and abrasive resistance, makes it an inferior material to support tons of weight over people and property, right out of the starting gate.
And this is doubly true when the system you advocate replacing can withstand those very same thermal and abrasive extremes that defeat synthetic systems so easily.
In other words, rub a taut steel cable with a wood stick like you're playing a violin, then do the same on a taut synthetic cable. Which of the three materials will fail first from abrasion? Which last?
jomoco
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
You are so misinformed about tree dynamics. Have you read any of Ken James' work? What about other literature that has researched the breaking strength of some trees?
Dynamic cabling should never be installed taught anyway...not the right way to install. Allowing the tree to move creates reaction wood. A tree with dynamic cabling will create reaction wood...less likely to happen in a static cabled tree. Years on..which will be stronger? From what I've learned, more reaction wood is better.
Explain your point about dynamic cabling being weaker than the tree. I think that you're confusing rigging loads with the loads that the tree experiences during normal movement.
Installing dynamic cables in non-compromised trees is good practice. If you don't think so then you aren't allowed to have shock absorbers and springs in your car. Go back to riding solid axles. Today...weld them down...and come back in a month or three and tell us about dynamic loads V static loads.
Dynamic cabling should never be installed taught anyway...not the right way to install. Allowing the tree to move creates reaction wood. A tree with dynamic cabling will create reaction wood...less likely to happen in a static cabled tree. Years on..which will be stronger? From what I've learned, more reaction wood is better.
Explain your point about dynamic cabling being weaker than the tree. I think that you're confusing rigging loads with the loads that the tree experiences during normal movement.
Installing dynamic cables in non-compromised trees is good practice. If you don't think so then you aren't allowed to have shock absorbers and springs in your car. Go back to riding solid axles. Today...weld them down...and come back in a month or three and tell us about dynamic loads V static loads.
Think about what you're saying Tom.
Here you are breaking the first rule of cabling only structurally compromised limbs. Then saying by doing this with a dynamic synthetic system that limits that branches natural range of motion, it somehow grows as much reaction wood as an unlimited natural branch? It's like saying a staked tree will develope more reaction wood than an unstaked tree.
I think you are sorely mistaken Tom, surprisingly so.
Has ANSI decided to throw out the first rule of cabling only structurally compromised limbs?
jomoco
Here you are breaking the first rule of cabling only structurally compromised limbs. Then saying by doing this with a dynamic synthetic system that limits that branches natural range of motion, it somehow grows as much reaction wood as an unlimited natural branch? It's like saying a staked tree will develope more reaction wood than an unstaked tree.
I think you are sorely mistaken Tom, surprisingly so.
Has ANSI decided to throw out the first rule of cabling only structurally compromised limbs?
jomoco
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