another non paying customer

The other thread on this got me wondering what you guys would think about my case. I did a bunch of tree work for a customer he was happy with and paid the bill for. So out of the blue a week or two later he calls and says hey, can your crew rip off a roof (his) so I can get my roofing company in to replace it. The money he mentions is good for one day's work, and the customer says he was a general contractor in a previous life and he'll do everything and all he needs me to do is supply the crew and are paid a fixed price for the day's work. He rents a roll off and some other tools and although I personally had never seen or even been on this roof, and made clear I am not a roofer, that I had no idea what was involved, I trusted his judgment when he gavea rough estimate it was a day's work or less, and he even threw out the idea that it was only 4 hours work if things smooth. So I went for it, called my crew and asked if they want to do roofing for one day and since the money was more than usual they said yes. We show up and start work a few days later, and after a couple hours we determine this is not gonna be possible in one day let alone 4 hours. This roof was a commercial grade flat type roof with literally 2 earlier roofs underneath and some sort of gravel soaked tar materials 6 inches thick requiring god knows what to cut it or melt. Removing an asphalt road by hand would have been easier. I get with the customer and say hey, we are not gonna be able to do this job but if you like, we can switch to an hourly rate and simply continue and I gave him a rate, actually a fairly low rate. He goes ballistic and says the quote for the crew was to be for completion of the whole roof demolition, not just a days work. I told him no way that's ridiculous (it was not a happy exchange) and told the crew to pack it in. An hour later he calls me as we are driving off and literally begs me to try and finish the job. He says money is no problem, you can have your hourly rate just keep working. I am suspicious at this point of the whole gig and almost say sorry no, but the guy had been straight with me on the tree work and paid the bill so I felt sorry for his mess and called some of my crew to go back saying, let's just do what we can on this and then at least we've filled up the day we promised and that's that. So we do that and literally get maybe 25% of this roof off by late in the afternoon (mis) using rented handheld concrete cutters. I still have no idea what the right tools for this type of roof would be.

So my question is, what does this guy owe me now for my crew's one day of work? I already paid my crew out of my pocket. They got paid for what was about 6 hours on the job, and I am fine with that. They did more or less what they were supposed to do. The fact it did not result in a completed job had nothing to do with them, nor anything I claimed I would deliver either besides showing up with a crew and working for a day. I never said I was a roofing contractor, never saw his roof (or I would have run the other way), and basically trusted him that he knew what he was talking about when he said it would take a day or less to complete. It was an oral agreement originally and there was no contract.
 
The roof you're describing is a BUR (built up roof) with ballast (the gravel) and a tearoff of these is not for the faint of heart or inexperienced. The correct tool is a roof cutter... a wheeled saw with only two carbide cutters, usually gas powered. You have to first remove as much of the ballast as possible, quite the backbreaking pain in the ass. As I'm sure you discovered, the asphalt is also a real joy to deal with. Heavy goo that's smelly and burns your skin a little after awhile. The only thing as bad as tearing one off is spending all day on a roof with a 800*F kettle that's smoking toxic fumes and is dangerous just to be near.

I don't know what this guy paid you... but I can almost guarantee it wasn't nearly enough. I tore off oodles of them, to be replaced with fully adhered EPDM roofs, and with a four-man crew I don't remember ever getting one torn off in a single day, if it was more than about two inches thick. The worst one took us over a week to tear off... 9 inches thick and about 140 squares. It had been flood coated multiple times, with new ballast each time. Previous a-holes didn't bother to remove/reuse the old ballast first, on a couple of layers. We had to take it off 2" at a time. Horrible work. But, the bid was tens of thousands of dollars, and I was the lowest bid. Redecked, rigid foam, OSB over that, fully adhered EPDM 60 mil membrane, and subbed out polyurea coating to a buddy of mine.

Never did another one that required a tearoff of older BUR layers. I decided I'd rather panhandle on a street corner and sleep in the subway rather than deal with hot tar roofs.

Never, ever agree to any roof job without seeing the job, and cutting a core to see what's under there. I suspect that your client is a cheapskate that figured out how to get his roof torn off for far less than any bid he may have gotten.
 
Man I would get away from this as fast as you can.
Take the loss.
I wouldn’t trust that client. He sounds like a scammer.

Sorry to hear about your situation
 
Yeah, it sounds like the guy may have already known that the tearoff would be insanely expensive with a standard contractor who knows what would be involved.

@JeffGu, the depth and breadth of your knowledge is sometimes astonishing to me. Nice of you to chime in with so much great information. I had never even heard of the type of roof you describe before this. It sounds like a nightmare.

Tim

Edit: Here's a link to a description of EPDM roofing technology.


Edit: Plus a couple of links that describes BUR roofing. As it turns out, I've walked on plenty of BUR roofs, I just did not know that that is what they were called.


 
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Sounds like he was taking advantage. I had a number of non-paying customers over the years, less than a half dozen and I ended up filing in small claims court. In this case that looks too complicated as the contract may be unclear.
 
I would be one pissed off tree guy if my boss put me on something like this shit show. Sounds like a happy ending if you even have a crew after that.
I personally hate being the labor caught in between a bad decision and a manipulation.
 
Yeah, it sounds like the guy may have already known that the tearoff would be insanely expensive with a standard contractor who knows what would be involved.

@JeffGu, the depth and breadth of your knowledge is sometimes astonishing to me. Nice of you to chime in with so much great information. I had never even heard of the type of roof you describe before this. It sounds like a nightmare.

Tim

Edit: Here's a link to a description of EPDM roofing technology.


Edit: Plus a couple of links that describes BUR roofing. As it turns out, I've walked on plenty of BUR roofs, I just did not know that that is what they were called.


Mr. Gu ain't just another pretty face!
 
@JeffGu wrote:
I decided I'd rather panhandle on a street corner and sleep in the subway rather than deal with hot tar roofs.

There was a time when the bottom rung of generic construction labor was fought between roofers and tree workers. Over time it seems that tree worker labor has held onto the rung up from roofing. Don't step down the ladder!
 
Quote: the depth and breadth of your knowledge is sometimes astonishing to me

Just never ask him to bioengineer a panther/bull shark hybrid cyborg for you. "Fluffy" as he is affectionately known (by Gu only alas...) does nothing but attack furniture and puke radioactive couch cushion filler everywhere when he isn't attempting to procreate with the ash stump in the backyard. An unmitigated disaster if there ever was one.
 
I would like to point out that the 800*F bit was a sort of joke about what happens when some dick leaves the propane on full blast and blows up the kettle. Normally, the kettle would be running around 350~450 degrees F to melt the kegs of asphalt.

Still, ridiculously dangerous, hard work that makes the very worst day you'll have in a tree seem like a picnic.

Don't step down the ladder!

Have no fear, my friend... if things get bad, I can always sell my body to science fiction. But I'm not going to be doing any roofing.
 
Thanks folks, I read all your replies. I agree with everyone 100%. I did not force my crew to show for this job as they are not full timers, and I paid them out of pocket also. One older guy grumbled at what a mess it was so I ate a lot of humble pie that day. He still works for me though and I told him I would stick to only doing tree jobs. I agree the customer was a jerk and possibly a scammer. He probably knew it was a $4-5k demo job which is what I told him after we reached 12 inches down into this thing to see what's in it. The only regret I have now is I should have walked right then, rather than be a chump to do a full day on it. I guess I had my hopes he was not a cheater.
 
The roof you're describing is a BUR (built up roof) with ballast (the gravel) and a tearoff of these is not for the faint of heart or inexperienced. The correct tool is a roof cutter... a wheeled saw with only two carbide cutters, usually gas powered. You have to first remove as much of the ballast as possible, quite the backbreaking pain in the ass. As I'm sure you discovered, the asphalt is also a real joy to deal with. Heavy goo that's smelly and burns your skin a little after awhile. The only thing as bad as tearing one off is spending all day on a roof with a 800*F kettle that's smoking toxic fumes and is dangerous just to be near.

I don't know what this guy paid you... but I can almost guarantee it wasn't nearly enough. I tore off oodles of them, to be replaced with fully adhered EPDM roofs, and with a four-man crew I don't remember ever getting one torn off in a single day, if it was more than about two inches thick. The worst one took us over a week to tear off... 9 inches thick and about 140 squares. It had been flood coated multiple times, with new ballast each time. Previous a-holes didn't bother to remove/reuse the old ballast first, on a couple of layers. We had to take it off 2" at a time. Horrible work. But, the bid was tens of thousands of dollars, and I was the lowest bid. Redecked, rigid foam, OSB over that, fully adhered EPDM 60 mil membrane, and subbed out polyurea coating to a buddy of mine.

Never did another one that required a tearoff of older BUR layers. I decided I'd rather panhandle on a street corner and sleep in the subway rather than deal with hot tar roofs.

Never, ever agree to any roof job without seeing the job, and cutting a core to see what's under there. I suspect that your client is a cheapskate that figured out how to get his roof torn off for far less than any bid he may have gotten.
Spot on. Spot on. you described this roof to a T. It was a nightmare. I'm a big strong guy and my crew is big strong dudes but we were like a bunch of girls up there. I finally decided some sort of bobcat attachment (which of course is not possible on a roof) was required.
 
Thanks folks, I read all your replies. I agree with everyone 100%. I did not force my crew to show for this job as they are not full timers, and I paid them out of pocket also. One older guy grumbled at what a mess it was so I ate a lot of humble pie that day. He still works for me though and I told him I would stick to only doing tree jobs. I agree the customer was a jerk and possibly a scammer. He probably knew it was a $4-5k demo job which is what I told him after we reached 12 inches down into this thing to see what's in it. The only regret I have now is I should have walked right then, rather than be a chump to do a full day on it. I guess I had my hopes he was not a cheater.

At least most people are not like him.

In 20 years of selling work I’ve only had 3 “scammers” who got me.

People can be cheap and there are plenty who will try to “chisel” the price they are quoted.
 
Yep, most people are honest but I used to get the occasional bounced check so I got a credit card swiper. No more checks, they can pay cash or else put it on a credit card. The fee is worth it because a single bounced check pays for an awful lot of swiper fees.

On price chiseling, realtors are notorious for price chiseling. Give them a price and they immediately start the counter bidding. They see it as the first volley in a prolonged negotiation, not as a final bid. I might counter once but end up walking on almost all realty work bids. They are professional negotiators. I am to the point where I will not even bid anything for those guys because they are such sharks.
 
Had a customer haggle me a couple weeks ago on a $400 job. Climbing a few small oaks to clip out caterpillar nests and felling two hazard trees into the woods. He keeps saying "any way to lower the price" and "how about $300, $350..." I am more amused than annoyed and say ok to $375. Get it in writing, and did the job yesterday afternoon after the rain quit. Didn't pull out a rake or blower, there's the discount for haggling.
 
Seems like when the above happens to me its always at a 350k+ house too. I get it if poor folks are trying to pinch pennies but if you have a 350k house you should be able to afford a $400 tree job. I'm kinda an a hole in this situation. I'll politely decline to lower my price once explaining that's not how bids work. If they keep pressing, I'll start going higher on my bid. I already bid competitively so in my eyes there's no reason to lower my price unless the situation changes, ie leave the wood, etc.
 
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